What's gender?

Oh wow

That’s really helpful, thanks! I’ll confess to a certain laziness around researching precise definitions at the level of science - I can just see the increasing fluidity within a continuum manifest societally in myriad ways that point out where we’re going. But a bit of precision via your list (patiently spoon feeding people this stuff must be trying at times but please persevere!) will help me understand the nuts and bolts of it. In which the ‘nuts’ are not always as important as they seem of course! 

Caelus said:

but pronouns are a social construct too arnt they? so why should they be selectively important and enforced when it is just another social construct?

So if I call you a girl, and/or refer to you as "she" or "her" you would be fine with that? Because you are implying it should be fine if it doesn't matter. Because "selectively important and enforced " is not what I said.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

"male" & "female, and in fact all words:  a social construct, all arbirarily applied to things as homosapiens evolved a language system to improve communication.

but pronouns are a social construct too arnt they? so why should they be selectively important and enforced when it is just another social construct?

I'll just make a glossary type post of it because people's own understanding of gender often gets confused for biological sex, so I should point out the science based reasons why for me they are two entirely separate things.

"male" & "female, and in fact all words:  a social construct, all arbitrarily applied to things as homosapiens evolved a language system to improve communication.

Simplified but imperfect biological sex (what a midwife calls at the birth) : penis = "male" vagina = "female" (gonadal sex)

Simplified but unreliable (GCSE level) scientific understandig of biological sex: xx = f, xy = m (genotypic sex)

Better researched (advanced) scientific understanding of biological sex:  Genotypic (See also karotype) sex +/vs Phenotypic sex +/vs Gonadal sex existing in a range that includes intersex individuals.

Gender:  a social construct that is either A. performative based on societal expectations and stereotypes of B. essentialist, the idea that a single  sex charicateristic = gender (unreliable since most people don't walk around with their genitals out or have their chromosomes tested to identify with any certainty*. and C. Identative ( see below)

Gender Identity: the Gender you feel you are. Which as a social construct can literally be anything.

"sex change" (physical transition): technically does change sex as most people's understanding of sex is gonadal based, thus change/remove the gonads of the traditionally associated sex, and you change the sex of the individual.

*Arguments against this who claim xx and xy and reproductive essentialism are also usually in for a surprise when they discover things like this occurr https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24313430/ a lot more frequently than one may think.

And further reading:

https://www.joshuakennon.com/the-six-common-biological-sexes-in-humans/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2020/06/15/the-myth-of-biological-sex/?sh=8ccd5b976b9b

https://www.hrc.org/resources/seven-things-about-transgender-people-that-you-didnt-know

https://slowrevealgraphs.com/2021/11/08/rate-of-left-handedness-in-the-us-stigma-society/

I always want everybody to be able to ask a question like yours.  It isn't the question - it's the manner in which people may choose to respond that may generate discomfort.....and you have no control over that Ree.  You defo have no reason to apologize to me.....but I do thank you for thinking nicely about it.

Actually that's not true. There are hundreds of species of fish that switch between genders. So it does happen. Same for humans. Not everyone stays or wants to stay the gender they were born as. There's no shame in that. But that's not the point of this thread so won't say any more on it. :) 

To me, gender is one aspect of how you understand yourself and present yourself to others. As far as I'm concerned, the genitals a person has are none of my business- how I perceive their gender is based on things like the way they choose to dress, the name they use, the pronouns they use (we all have them!) and so on. The most important factors are the ones a person prioritises for themselves and shares with others.

I'm a cis woman, but I've chosen not to have children and due to medical issues probably couldn't have them anyway, so to me the things people might associate with my biological sex have very little to do with my perception of my own gender, outside of the fact that those two things happen to match. I do think that the knowledge that my own gender isn't dependent on a strict set of rules about "what women's bodies can do" has made me a more compassionate and understanding person towards people whose gender and the sex they were assigned at birth doesn't match.

Nothing just changes its gender. No feeling or anything like that. You are what you are.

Gender is something that you feel and I think it's a feeling that changes and intensifies as you go through life. There's no shame in it. Your own happiness is what matters at the end of the day. 

Haha. I like the simplicity of this. I understand it. What I'm struggling with is to figure out how I feel :D. How do different genders feel like? .. I mean, how do I recognise mine... Hmmmm will have to think about this one haha

Are you trying to say that when someone has to reveal their pronoun or use one then they are sort of "forced" to come out or share a personal info that they might not want to share? . I'm trying to understand your view here.

Well, now I'm thinking about why we have pronouns in the first place haha. I guess they are useful to refer to a third person?. Otherwise people would have to use my name all the time, no? Also, how would it look like in literature and poems ext.. it's interesting to think about how things will change if we change this simple thing. I don't care about what pronoun people use with me. Only the pronoun (it) would offend me a little. Otherwise, I don't really care. Thank you for sharing. Even tho to be frank, I didn't completely get it but I know that it's hard for me to understand stuff sometimes.

it just tells me whether they have a peepee or a vajayjay.

i was born a dude because  have a wang. i dont need to think on it anymore as theres no need to. i accept my body and accept my being of who i am... i could have been a woman in a past life, but that doesnt matter for in this life i am a man. you have to accept who you are in this life and play your role whatever it is. the thing between my legs shouldnt make up any of my personality.... but i understand how it can make up a large part of a persons personality if they are devoid of any personality themselves...  the first i saw of people making the thing between their legs too much of their personality was in school where everyone kept weirdly talking about their balls or their wang all the time... it was vulgar and gross but apparently normal and accepted for boys in school?? .....  i saw those people as social followers who follow social trends without thinking, as bullies because those people always became bullies and bullied you if you didnt want to talk about private parts and told them its vulgar lol so you see why id have a negative view on people who make their entire personality their genitals

I do agree, the speed is key.

You have used 13 pronouns in this post. Be careful! They're dangerous!

There's structural inevitability to all of the tribes (and their subtly shifting counterweighting ratios) as all moments of 'new (mainstream) territory' meet with friction designed by evolution's blueprint to pace that inevitable positive change so that the wheels don't come off day to day stability while we edge towards the promised land. Best thing you can do is be your own authentic voice and accept that you're an avatar for either resistance or acceptance of where we're going. The equations are already set to what they presently need to be, so 'crossing the floor' to the future-embracing 'side' (greater inclusiveness without fear) will only happen in rare and carefully rationed proportions - one changed mind just now and again, but more in the next generation - a steady but paced acceleration. 

Kittera said:

it's MY right to have an OPINION,

Absolutely.

There are ONLY demands from those people. 

Before I was completely FOR the idea of pronouns, for the reasons that you mentioned. I thought "Well, it's weird, but at least they get to be what they want without feeling like a LIE to THEMSELVES, right?" I am against it because the people that use them are also people who think. After all, they are different, people MUST change too. And not just people,  THAT'S the issue: books, words, history, bathrooms, laws, workplaces. 

I do agree, certain things need to change to make people feel more included. But... HOW those people are doing it... no. No, I- I can't. Like I wrote in my first comment and I KNEW I would receive a reply, but... I am sorry: I don't agree that everyone MUST do this. 

And in any case, I know you are gonna reply, but I don't want to create an argument space on Ree's question and make her feel guilty that people are fighting. It's a big political matter. And again, like I said: I am sorry if I offend anyone but.... this is how I feel, and as an individual, I have a right to think what I think, as long as I don't go out and insult people in the street about it.

My best friend thinks that SHE is a HE, and you know what I told her/he? I said "You should come to the UK because they are so open about this, they use pronouns to divert the individual. You could start over as the person you want". Because, I knew, that's what could be best for him. No matter what my opinions are.

I am against pronouns. But it's MY right to have an OPINION, that is different from yours without being bullied or guilted about it. That is WHY I am against pronouns. People are being guilted to change. And again, I don't want to enter a debate for @Ree, so how about I don't answer any more coming replies to avoid a shouting match?

Please?

Ive always simplified this down to:

Sex - your biological type

Gender - how you feel

Not sure if that is too reductionist, but it works for me?

So I see gender as something that can change, and sex as something that isn't our choice? Hope that isn't controversial