What's gender?

Peter said:

Ok but the otherkin really do mean it. you kinda glossed over that one.

If you are asking do I accept them? As part of being LGBTQ? Depends on if it falls under MOGAI. If they are having a spiritual thing as some claim then it probably comes under religious freedom.  I don't proclaim to understand what exactly goes on in their heads but if it's important to them and it harms none I don't see how it would be any skin off my nose to call them whatever it is they want to be called. Even if it's a bit "out there".

""It often feels like non binary is a label adopted purely to give an individual a pretext to try and police the thinking of others. And that I think people find objectionable.""
Again I think that is optics, which is a shame, because most folks identifying as NB genuinely are not trying to pull someone's leg but just honestly trying to live their truth.

Peter said:

I'm fairly sure there is meaning independent of society. For example on a desert island with no society hunger thirst and boredom all have meaning.

Ah I think you misunderstod the definition of a construct. That's fine, the world isn't going to fall apart if it's been misunderstood.

Peter said:

Conversely if it doesn't matter what you do so long as it hurts no body it shouldn't mater if I accept it or not, so long as I still treat people well regardless of how they define their gender.

I think this comes back around to a similar area I mentioned in my first line. And earlier, when I explained your gender and how you experience it is %100 correct for YOU. If by which you mean you cannot understand my point of view because you aren't standing in my shoes (which would be weird because then you wouldn't be you, you'd be me) so you are just for lack of a better phrase "humouring" me then no I suppose the end result is the same more or less regardless. But the respect still matters construct or not, because I think you will agree that if someone would correct the pronouns they use for a dog they previously misidentified as a "good boy" when it's really a "good girl" not abiding by a request to use certain pronouns for trans/nb is worse than dehumanising if a person would respect a dog more than another person who has done them no harm. Which is why understanding doesn't have to be the pre-requisite of acceptance imo.

(I wasn't going to hit send on this as I already sent my other message regarding having to go on bed rest, but it was already more or less typed up anyway and I just realised it was still here as I was going through and closing down my tabs.) Take care of yourself Peter, I hope to see you around the forums again when I eventually come back. /gen

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

but people who say they identify as an attack helicopter almost never mean it, it's just a dishonest misrepresentation to be petty to trans and NB people.

Ok but the otherkin really do mean it. you kinda glossed over that one.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

In a world where there is no inherent meaning save what constructs society creates for itself depending on where you want to rip that structure apart the anarchy can either be terrifying or liberating.

I'm fairly sure there is meaning independent of society. For example on a desert island with no society hunger thirst and boredom all have meaning.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

Because if you really feel "'you can do what you like so long as it doesn't hurt any one,'" then it shouldn't matter if my gender can be measured or not for you (the royal you if needs be) to accept it.

Conversely if it doesn't matter what you do so long as it hurts no body it shouldn't mater if I accept it or not, so long as I still treat people well regardless of how they define their gender.

You see that's what people resent. Being told how to think. I don't care what labels you (the royal you) use. I don't care which changing room you use. I only care about what you do to your body to the extent that doctors have a duty to do no harm and therefor do some due diligence that the procedure they offer you do more good than harm and that you are competent to consent to them. These are matters for you. I resent and I think most people resent being told how I must think of you (the royal you) as male, female or something else.

It often feels like non binary is a label adopted purely to give an individual a pretext to try and police the thinking of others. And that I think people find objectionable.

Peter said:

That's a bit wishy washy don't you think? Another non binary person can't look inside your head and see if your perception of your own neurology being non binary is the same as theirs? If gender is just a feeling how does anyone know their feelings are the same as anyone else's?

Not wishy washy at all. Your gender is your gender others don't have to understand everything about it to accept it.

Peter said:

To borrow a hyperboly from 4chan, if I feel like my gender is attack helicopter why isn't it?

You're asking the wrong question. If you feel your gender is  whatever then it is, but people who say they identify as an attack helicopter almost never mean it, it's just a dishonest misrepresentation to be petty to trans and NB people.

Peter said:

How can we put a number on your feeling of being non binary?

You can't, and the innability to measure it doesn't change the outcome, I still am , always was, and will always be, but people who are bothered by that should really be asking theselves why it bothers them.  In a world where there is no inherent meaning save what constructs society creates for itself depending on where you want to rip that structure apart the anarchy can either be terrifying or liberating.


It's odd and sad how that "'you can do what you like so long as it doesn't hurt any one,'" attitude was never really upheld even back then, and is markedly absent now , it is surface level patter and optics and no more than that. Because if you really feel "'you can do what you like so long as it doesn't hurt any one,'" then it shouldn't matter if my gender can be measured or not for you (the royal you if needs be) to accept it.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

Do you hang out with current LGBTQ groups btw? GNCs (gender non conforming folks) that are otherwise still cis or hetero but come in good faith are welcome in those spaces.

Not really. I find they are full of easily offended people and I'm good at inadvertently offending people. I've never really felt the need to advocate for LGBT rights ... I'm more into human rights. I just happen to recognise that LGBT individuals are humans who's often get a raw deal. I've generally found the anime community to be more accepting. Even back in the so called 'toxic' days of the 00s where people really didn't give 2 hoots about politically correct language if you wanted to run around crossdressing or hooking up with the same sex no one really cared in the anime community. There was a trans man in our anime society for years and I never knew. He had a gender neutral name looked like a tomboyish girl and never made a fuss about his pronouns. I had assumed he was a girl for years till some one mentioned it to me.

No one made a fuss 'you can do what you like so long as it doesn't hurt any one,' was the prevailing attitude.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

Indeed that is why I mentioned your identity is based on"gonadal sex" (I made a whole glossary earlier if you want to check it out). I don't know if this is gettng missed in the discussion but I'm actually affirming your own gender and it's basis, that is what it means t be cis and evidently it is right for you. That just doesn't mean it's right for everyone else. I'll explain why at the end.

I mean gonadal sex isn't a very good term. Women with CAIS have testicals but are generally considered cis women.

When I talk about a spectrum I guess I'm really taking about a high dimensional space of independent traits. Like a list of numbers. like say the list from before in my first post. (I'll copy paste)

1. having at least one testical 
2. having at least one overy 
3. having a uterus 
4. having secondary male sex characteristic
5. having secondary female sex characteristics
6. having spent some time being raised as a girl
7. having spent some time being raised as a man
8. sometimes using male pronouns 
9. sometimes using female pronouns 
10. having a Y chromosome 

Now consider where a typical woman with CAIS would sit on that spectrum if we assign each property to a binary number. She's probably be 1000110011. That would be her position in the spectrum. Now consider a boy raised as a girl castrated before puberty who goes by they. They would probably be 0000010001. Then consider a chimera hermaphrodite their number might be 1111111111. You can come up with lots of systems for sorting this 'spectrum' into categories just as we sort wavelengths of light into colours like red and blue. All I'm saying by referring to spectrums and multiple genders is you need at least 3 to capture the sense of 'male' and 'female' in typical english and for functional reasons more than 3 might be needed in practice.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

I don't disagree with your 2nd to last paragraph above the quoted one, but as a NB gender person I can say that tieing identiy to transition or wanting to transition is false, I don't always want my body to be different, actually I'm most days pretty comfy, and that is because my gender is not tied to the acceptance or rejection of my body or gonadal sex, you can say it's in my neurology or in my soul, but I would still be nonbinary no matter what my body looked or acted like.

That's a bit wishy washy don't you think? Another non binary person can't look inside your head and see if your perception of your own neurology being non binary is the same as theirs? If gender is just a feeling how does anyone know their feelings are the same as anyone else's? To borrow a hyperboly from 4chan, if I feel like my gender is attack helicopter why isn't it? Surely there needs to be an external reference point. Let me put it another way. You've heard of other kin? People who believe they are the reincarnated souls of non humans, often fictional characters. What does it mean to believe you are the reincarnation of the fictional sherlock holmes? How is that a cultural / group identity if it exists only in your head? The body and the changes we can make to it or aspire to make for it are quantifiable. We can put numbers on the size of genitals, hormone levels, sequences of DNA. How can we put a number on your feeling of being non binary?

Think this changes through life. I often feel more masculine or feminine depending on what is going on inside or possibly as a reaction to external experiences

Those sound awesome! I hope you post pics when they are done (and that I don't miss them as this forum is frustratingly easy to miss stuff...)

Oooh you just reminded me I need to get around and finish painting the miniature murals up the sides of my bike boots. So far it's just the heraldic unicorns that are done in metalic gold and silver.

Leather toe-capped suede boots and oxfords(from time to time)

I'd like to be comfy trainers, but am actually worn out old boots with holes in. But the boots are purple and decorated with pictures of cats.

I'm a hybrid btw - espadrille, wellie, brogue, rigger and slipper.

And you?

I suppose it's only to be expected, it's more like asking what is autism than it is like asking what are shoes?!

Funny is that dozens of replies have been written here and I still don't really have a clear idea what gender is haha. But definitely bit clearer than before.

Peter & Bees

Thank you for reminding me what a calm, cordial, and reasoned discussion looks like in this place.

It sustains my faith that there is always hope.....and this is how I learn stuff - so thank you for that to.

Number.

Peter said:

as I’ve said my own view of gender is that it is a spectrum not a binary. But you’re right while some people might include performative elements (like who wears the trousers) for me personally I wouldn’t. I tend to think of it more in terms of what body parts does some one have / want to have.

Indeed that is why I mentioned your identity is based on"gonadal sex" (I made a whole glossary earlier if you want to check it out). I don't know if this is gettng missed in the discussion but I'm actually affirming your own gender and it's basis, that is what it means t be cis and evidently it is right for you. That just doesn't mean it's right for everyone else. I'll explain why at the end.

Peter said:

and it was more of an aside anyway. The point I was making is gender is a spectrum but if you try to categorise it there must be at least 3 genders.

It's funny because I don't think we disagree per se', but the minutia of the points we have to make appears to differ, but yes a spectrum absolutely. But if you(people in general) "boil it down" I can see why you might say 3 eg female, male, and neither of the other two. But surely that's a trinary not a spectrum and others less intellectualy open to such concepts as a spectrum would ignore the "at least " part, which is pretty much where we are at in terms of more rudimentary scientiffic understanding with gonadal sex currently.

Peter said:

yes that’s probably the most functional useful way to think about gender. Gender as the way we want our bodies to be as compared to how they actually are as compared to how they are perceived by ourselves and others.

I don't disagree with your 2nd to last paragraph above the quoted one, but as a NB gender person I can say that tieing identiy to transition or wanting to transition is false, I don't always want my body to be different, actually I'm most days pretty comfy, and that is because my gender is not tied to the acceptance or rejection of my body or gonadal sex, you can say it's in my neurology or in my soul, but I would still be nonbinary no matter what my body looked or acted like. That's what my identity is to me. I am nonbinary because I know I am, I've known since day one way back in the 80s.

Peter said:

it would be nice if we lived in a world where delicate guys could be treated like princesses and wooed by doting strong women and bought drinks in bars. Or where women could spend their days lifting weights and join the SAS. Alas society is not that flexible.

but for me when I think of gender identity I’m thinking, ok if I was the only one left in the world what would I want to see when I looked in the mirror.

The difference between physical and social dysphoria is fascinating, and I think it's worth anyone questioning their gender asking themselves those questions: How would I want my body (and presentation) to be if I was the only person in the world? How important would it be to me? What is the most comfortable way for my body to be and for me to present / label myself in our current society?

From speaking to trans/non-binary people I think most have some combination of both physical and social dysphoria. You could say physical dysphoria is more fundamental, but given that we live in a society and that's unlikely to change any time soon, I think both are valid reasons for transition and self-identification as trans or non-binary.

Actually we predate birth certificates, which are a modern invention:
https://www.hrc.org/resources/seven-things-about-transgender-people-that-you-didnt-know
Sorry, but this is why I got bored last week: you could have found this information for yourself with an easy google search if you really wanted to know the answers. So since your questions about gender have an answer already on the internet somewhere and google doesn't need dopamine to stay interested I'm done with this particular thread chain. Have a lovely Tuesday. /gen :)

Peter said:

I think some (not all) intersex people would strongly disagree with you.

That's for them to correct me though, though what you said goes against what intersex folks tell me themselves in LGBTQ groups anyway. Though as you say "some not all", even with other groups it's not wise to treat the word of the individual alone as a kind of gospel. That doesn't mean it can just be dismissed, but accepted with a pinch of salt. Do you hang out with current LGBTQ groups btw? GNCs (gender non conforming folks) that are otherwise still cis or hetero but come in good faith are welcome in those spaces.

Peter said:

My source is a number of blogs by trans women  I was following around 15+ years ago. I never said it was a majority. We’re talking about trans people so any subsection is going to be a tiny minority of the population as a whole.

As long as the informationand source is clear I have no issue with that.

Peter said:

you can learn far more looking at hero's, terrorists, serial killers and saints than you can looking at joe blogs on his way to work.

I appreciate why you would say that, they are after all statistical outliers, and anomalys.

Respectfully I have to disagree for myself though. I always found the outliers of society get studied because they are outliers, not many people have thought to study the masses en-masse. If you'll forgive the metaphor: In terms of social studies the lack of research into the "general" population is a bit like humans looking for water in other parts of the solar system while %80 of our own oceans on earth are still uncharted. So personally I am more interested in discovering what can be learned from the largely un-studied.

My source is a number of blogs by trans women  I was following around 15+ years ago. I never said it was a majority. We’re talking about trans people so any subsection is going to be a tiny minority of the population as a whole.

but then I'm rarely interested in the majority. In science it’s the extreme cases that are often most informative. In biology we learn a lot about the functioning of the body through the extreme symptoms of diseases. In physics we need the extreme energies of particle accelerators to probe quantum theory. I take the same approach with human beings.

you can learn far more looking at hero's, terrorists, serial killers and saints than you can looking at joe blogs on his way to work.

Up to a point. What if my feelings and thoughts are at odds with yours? If everyone’s thoughts and feelings need to be respected… well some perspectives are mutually exclusive and can not ‘respect’ each other because they are fundamentally contradictory. So if everyone has to respect everyone else’s thoughts and feelings some thoughts and feels can not be allowed and you get into the territory of thought crimes and society trying to control what we think.

the important caveat to all of this being it’s possible to be respectful to a person with out respecting their opinions or feelings. The fact that we can’t all see eye to eye isn’t an excuse to treat others badly.