What's gender?

I'll just make a glossary type post of it because people's own understanding of gender often gets confused for biological sex, so I should point out the science based reasons why for me they are two entirely separate things.

"male" & "female, and in fact all words:  a social construct, all arbitrarily applied to things as homosapiens evolved a language system to improve communication.

Simplified but imperfect biological sex (what a midwife calls at the birth) : penis = "male" vagina = "female" (gonadal sex)

Simplified but unreliable (GCSE level) scientific understandig of biological sex: xx = f, xy = m (genotypic sex)

Better researched (advanced) scientific understanding of biological sex:  Genotypic (See also karotype) sex +/vs Phenotypic sex +/vs Gonadal sex existing in a range that includes intersex individuals.

Gender:  a social construct that is either A. performative based on societal expectations and stereotypes of B. essentialist, the idea that a single  sex charicateristic = gender (unreliable since most people don't walk around with their genitals out or have their chromosomes tested to identify with any certainty*. and C. Identative ( see below)

Gender Identity: the Gender you feel you are. Which as a social construct can literally be anything.

"sex change" (physical transition): technically does change sex as most people's understanding of sex is gonadal based, thus change/remove the gonads of the traditionally associated sex, and you change the sex of the individual.

*Arguments against this who claim xx and xy and reproductive essentialism are also usually in for a surprise when they discover things like this occurr https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24313430/ a lot more frequently than one may think.

And further reading:

https://www.joshuakennon.com/the-six-common-biological-sexes-in-humans/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2020/06/15/the-myth-of-biological-sex/?sh=8ccd5b976b9b

https://www.hrc.org/resources/seven-things-about-transgender-people-that-you-didnt-know

https://slowrevealgraphs.com/2021/11/08/rate-of-left-handedness-in-the-us-stigma-society/

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

"male" & "female, and in fact all words:  a social construct, all arbirarily applied to things as homosapiens evolved a language system to improve communication.

but pronouns are a social construct too arnt they? so why should they be selectively important and enforced when it is just another social construct?

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

"male" & "female, and in fact all words:  a social construct, all arbirarily applied to things as homosapiens evolved a language system to improve communication.

but pronouns are a social construct too arnt they? so why should they be selectively important and enforced when it is just another social construct?

Actually we predate birth certificates, which are a modern invention:
https://www.hrc.org/resources/seven-things-about-transgender-people-that-you-didnt-know
Sorry, but this is why I got bored last week: you could have found this information for yourself with an easy google search if you really wanted to know the answers. So since your questions about gender have an answer already on the internet somewhere and google doesn't need dopamine to stay interested I'm done with this particular thread chain. Have a lovely Tuesday. /gen :)

hasnt the term gender been around longer than your rehashed version of the word though?
thats why we have had gender on birth certificates longer than your new meaning of the word and it meant male or female at birth lol

Ah forgot to turn the notifs off, okay I'll repond once more but then I'm off for the night.

Caelus said:

but isnt that contradicting what you said though?

No.

Caelus said:

but originally you used the term to render things unimportant and to be cast aside? 

Because I didn't. Again that's not what I said, I can't believe this needs be explained here, but I am autistic and for me that means explaining things explicit terms.

But see what I mean? It's become circular and boring. I'm now explaining to you what I've had to with Number. This topic becomes very understimulating very quick when not discussed with academics in this field as it is anyway.

Time for something more fun again so I'll say nn now as I remembered to turn the notifs off this time.

but isnt that contradicting what you said though? so social constructs are important now? but originally you used the term to render things unimportant and to be cast aside? 

anyway i work with many people who use many languages, i dont mind if they speak indian, i even try to pick up and use some of their words for the exoticness and fun of it. i dont mind if they use naughty words in their language and even use it against each other and myself, i quite like it and it makes for some fun. 

Caelus said:

and as i said i dont tell people what language or words they can use, they can call me anything they want and i can call them anything they want.

Except I don't think you really believe that. Sure nobody is going to physically stop you, but, even you know due to other social constructs that doesn't render you immune from the consequences if you chose to be disrespectful. Just because something is a contruct doesn't mean it's of no importance in human interaction hence the "social". Which really just goes back to the thread about forum rules, which already exists, so as this is getting dull anyway we don't really need to have this conversation again.
Whole thread has kind of run it's course tbh, so I'll just mute it now and go catch a movie.

i dont mind what anyone calls me, for all they know i might not even exist, i am but mere text on your screen as far as everyone knows.

and as i said i dont tell people what language or words they can use, they can call me anything they want and i can call them anything they want.

its their language, how they use their own language makes up who they are not who i am. it could be their quirky personality that makes them call what they percieve as a man a she... or they could perhaps not use pronouns at all and be like the yorkshire folk and call everyone "me duck" or "ol mucker" or whatever. doesnt offend me, its just who they are. if you know the intention isnt hostile or mean then theres no problems i guess....

ofcourse if they make out their intent in their words was hostile it might perhaps change things, but thats tricky as you have to work out whether they are intending hostility. and its only a issue not because of the words but because any hostile intent or venom in their words is often a precursor to a physical action against you so it then puts you on edge for a action. often youd have to hear the tone of how one says it though but its usually hard, and often assuming and trying to spot hostility you often can get it wrong and then get defensive and think wrong things about the person and end up being hostile back when they wasnt intending hostility. so its pretty hard really, its impossible on words on a screen though as you dont have their tone and how they say it to aid identifying if its hostile or not, which is why alot of internet arguments happen as none hostile things get taken for hostile.

Caelus said:

but i agree language is ...fluid... words are just words,

Okay. So would you answer the question? Would it be fine to refer to you as she/her? Yes, or no?
Because:

Caelus said:

what a person calls someone is how they perceive them and is up to the person using their own language. not up to anyone else to tell them what to do or say. thats where it gets a bit oppressive.

peoples own words are their own words, their own perception is their own perception,

Under that logic, I only have your word that you are a guy. So if anything should give me cause to doubt that

Caelus said:

alot of people lie,

it matters, do I A. call you by whatever, or B. take your word for it and show you the same respect as I would hope you would show me.
You can set your own rules for yourself, the distinction is you can't set them for anyone else. But rules to be worthy of respect must be consistent.

what a person calls someone is how they perceive them and is up to the person using their own language. not up to anyone else to tell them what to do or say. thats where it gets a bit oppressive.

peoples own words are their own words, their own perception is their own perception, their own language is their own and their choice in how to use it. id never tell anyone what to say and id never expect anyone to tell me what to say.... unless its legal advice that i asked for and wanted to know legal things to say ofcourse.

but i agree language is ...fluid... words are just words, there shouldnt be too much weight behind a word. but rather by who a person is and their being and how they act and what they do. people put too much stock into words and i dont believe words really have that much meaning or power. alot of people dont stick to their words, alot of people lie, so the power of words has been eroded alot. actions trump words, and a persons being and character.

so in that sense i agree with you on the whole social construct thing and any word being fluid as i dont believe too much in the power or solidity of words. despite the fact im very heavy worded in writing and often use words pretty effectively to complain about my boss at work lol

Caelus said:

but pronouns are a social construct too arnt they? so why should they be selectively important and enforced when it is just another social construct?

So if I call you a girl, and/or refer to you as "she" or "her" you would be fine with that? Because you are implying it should be fine if it doesn't matter. Because "selectively important and enforced " is not what I said.