What's gender?

Caelus said:

and as i said i dont tell people what language or words they can use, they can call me anything they want and i can call them anything they want.

Except I don't think you really believe that. Sure nobody is going to physically stop you, but, even you know due to other social constructs that doesn't render you immune from the consequences if you chose to be disrespectful. Just because something is a contruct doesn't mean it's of no importance in human interaction hence the "social". Which really just goes back to the thread about forum rules, which already exists, so as this is getting dull anyway we don't really need to have this conversation again.
Whole thread has kind of run it's course tbh, so I'll just mute it now and go catch a movie.

I know (plenty), but as I'm a newbie on here & finding my feet so to speak, I best watch my P's & Q's.  

Personally, I believe that not using words that hurt people is a simple matter of kindness. 

You're still free to say things that hurt people if you like, but they also have a right to respond and tell you that they don't like it.  

I know there may be a shouty minority of trans people, but in most cases in my experience it's something that people ask for politely.  As I myself have done when asked.

Whether or not you want to reply to this is up to you, but please respect my choice to provide a counterpoint.

Gender is … a word who’s meaning changes radically depending on context. Academically? Gender is a spectrum look let me give you a list of gender related qualities 

1. having at least one testicul 
2. having at least one overy 
3. having a uterus 
4. having secondary male sex characteristic
5. having secondary female sex characteristics
6. having spent some time being raised as a girl
7. having spent some time being raised as a man
8. sometimes using male pronouns 
9. sometimes using female pronouns 
10. having a Y chromosome 

every single one of these binary states can coexist in any combination. That’s 2^10 different ‘genders’ if you like. More colours than an old VGA monitor can display. A lot of these combinations are fairly common and would be recognised as either male or female by most people, but less common combinations exist or are theoretically possible and you could definitely go from ‘male’ to ‘female’ flipping one condition at a time just like you can go from red to blue through orange yellow and green.

but since most of the time people can be labeled as clearly male or female, even if you are say a man born with a vestigial uterus people will generally call you male. It’s even meaningful to trans people because most trans people want to go from being unambiguously labeled as one gender to the other. The reality is a lot get stuck in the middle between male and female depending on the definition of male / female you pick.

self identification as a definition just doesn’t work. There will always be a small number of people who self identify as gender A and walk, look, act and talk like gender B. People just won’t accept that. On one level it raises the very good question why should anyone have to look or act like a certain gender. On the other it’s stupid to assert gender is un important. For anyone who isn’t bisexual / asexual  gender matters because it effects who they will or won’t have sex with.

this is what some trans women call the cotton ceiling. They go to gay bars where their friends end up hooking up with lesbians but they never do. Their lesbian friends reassure them that they are supported that no one at the bar would question their femininity. But that recognition doesn’t extend to the parts of their brain that govern sexual attraction. People, most people, are not attracted  to a certain gender identity, they are attracted to a certain gendered body.

and yet there are trans people who do pass, who’s lovers wouldn’t know their bodies had changed if they weren’t told, in a functional sense their gender is different to those trans people who can’t pass and it drives many trans people crazy because those who pass have attained what most trans people want to attain. 

we live in a society that has a desperate need to label people as male or female, a need born of reproduction and the base parts of our brains that handle reproduction. But the reality is there is no objective unambiguous functional binary definition of gender no matter how much society, and even trans people, wishes there were. The best you can possibly do is male / female / other and even then it’s not at all clear where the boundaries should or would be drawn. That would be a very subjective question.

so every time you are forced to address gender in a technical or legal context you really need to think about it as a spectrum in my view.

i dont mind what anyone calls me, for all they know i might not even exist, i am but mere text on your screen as far as everyone knows.

and as i said i dont tell people what language or words they can use, they can call me anything they want and i can call them anything they want.

its their language, how they use their own language makes up who they are not who i am. it could be their quirky personality that makes them call what they percieve as a man a she... or they could perhaps not use pronouns at all and be like the yorkshire folk and call everyone "me duck" or "ol mucker" or whatever. doesnt offend me, its just who they are. if you know the intention isnt hostile or mean then theres no problems i guess....

ofcourse if they make out their intent in their words was hostile it might perhaps change things, but thats tricky as you have to work out whether they are intending hostility. and its only a issue not because of the words but because any hostile intent or venom in their words is often a precursor to a physical action against you so it then puts you on edge for a action. often youd have to hear the tone of how one says it though but its usually hard, and often assuming and trying to spot hostility you often can get it wrong and then get defensive and think wrong things about the person and end up being hostile back when they wasnt intending hostility. so its pretty hard really, its impossible on words on a screen though as you dont have their tone and how they say it to aid identifying if its hostile or not, which is why alot of internet arguments happen as none hostile things get taken for hostile.

From an evolutionary point of view, having genders/sexes is just a way of shuffling DNA. Species without sex and different genders, they exist, for example there are parthenogenic lizards, are composed of clonal lines. They have very restricted genetic diversity, and if their environment changes, they are at greater risk of extinction. While the environment is stable, parthenogenic reproduction is more efficient, females making clones of themselves, which is why it occurs, but it is a bad long-term strategy. The "Blind Watchmaker" and the several billion years of the history of life are responsible for the existence of gender. How easy it is to ignore that amount of history is difficult to say, though the human mind is very diverse and malleable.

BTW  Former Member if there is any brouhaha over this topic, don't worry it's not your fault. That's just what it's like here, opinions are like bumholes and we all have one. XD

That's a shame Number, I've always been interested in hearing what you have to say, always tried to make you feel welcome to express your opinions but sometimes it feels like you are reluctant to answer my questions. And I can't think why.
Lots of people alude to things but then never follow up with explicitly explaining what the things actually are, which, call it stereotypic if you want, but I always find it odd as an autist to be be met with such nebulousity from other autists, when usually we are a straightforward bunch. I know I always try to say what I mean at least.

The internet has been a net negative i think.  Before it the same people still existed though. I know i did.

Perhaps....but it feels to me like everyone has been popping metaphorical steroids recently....and then REALLY setting to !

We all use pronouns. I'm using them right now.

It's an absolute shame that a world has been fostered in which people are fearful to give their views but there is most probably  absolutely nothing new about that. Especially in this country where people have always been coy on certain subjects.

Nah, just one, to turn the working class against it'self by scapegoating other subsets of the working class as a distraction tactic so they can keep giving themselves more tax breaks and bonuses. Rich get richer, poor get poorer, it's not a new agenda, they just changed the scapegoat.

"Almost as if there's an agenda behind it"....agendaS dear fellow - plural......and there always are - in everything of this nature, always.

I just keep it simple.
I see gender as either being M or F.

However, when you say ‘gender identity’, it refers to how one identifies.

Caelus said:

so yes there is some greater plan that the powers that be have with all of this. who knows what it could be? .... perhaps it is to curve human population growth by promoting things that make us all infertile?

You know trans and gay people have kids biologically without medical assistance all the time right?
You also know the government hates us and vice versa right? And let's not be divisive, by us, I mean all of us in this forum for one reason or another.

Caelus said:

but i agree language is ...fluid... words are just words,

Okay. So would you answer the question? Would it be fine to refer to you as she/her? Yes, or no?
Because:

Caelus said:

what a person calls someone is how they perceive them and is up to the person using their own language. not up to anyone else to tell them what to do or say. thats where it gets a bit oppressive.

peoples own words are their own words, their own perception is their own perception,

Under that logic, I only have your word that you are a guy. So if anything should give me cause to doubt that

Caelus said:

alot of people lie,

it matters, do I A. call you by whatever, or B. take your word for it and show you the same respect as I would hope you would show me.
You can set your own rules for yourself, the distinction is you can't set them for anyone else. But rules to be worthy of respect must be consistent.

its been heavily pushed by media and big business and governments and education. so yes there is some greater plan that the powers that be have with all of this. who knows what it could be? .... perhaps it is to curve human population growth by promoting things that make us all infertile? ....we cannot sustain the population growth humanity has been having and even china tried 1 child policy to stop theirs too, the population growth is too much a strain on resources and infrastructure and its also bad for the environment, so it makes sense theyd want to try things that sterilise us... i wont be surprised if the pfizer jabs lowered fertility too.

what a person calls someone is how they perceive them and is up to the person using their own language. not up to anyone else to tell them what to do or say. thats where it gets a bit oppressive.

peoples own words are their own words, their own perception is their own perception, their own language is their own and their choice in how to use it. id never tell anyone what to say and id never expect anyone to tell me what to say.... unless its legal advice that i asked for and wanted to know legal things to say ofcourse.

but i agree language is ...fluid... words are just words, there shouldnt be too much weight behind a word. but rather by who a person is and their being and how they act and what they do. people put too much stock into words and i dont believe words really have that much meaning or power. alot of people dont stick to their words, alot of people lie, so the power of words has been eroded alot. actions trump words, and a persons being and character.

so in that sense i agree with you on the whole social construct thing and any word being fluid as i dont believe too much in the power or solidity of words. despite the fact im very heavy worded in writing and often use words pretty effectively to complain about my boss at work lol

Whatever it (this topic) is, it seems to have become very popular over the last year or so, almost as if there's an agenda behind it, or maybe it's just my crazy conspiratorial mind playing tricks on me again.