social interaction and small talk - why don't we learn?

I wonder how many times Marvin Gaye was greeted like that?

I often say "what's going on?" instead of how are you?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who talks to people at bus stops. Some people do expect answers and aren't always that believing when you tell them the reason. I had a car accident and got hit on the head and had two black eyes amoungst other bruising, a customer in the shop I was working in refused to believe my black eyes were due to a car accident and kept saying how loyal I was to my abusive partner, he wouldn't even have it that I didn't have a partner. One of the things I've noticed is the further North or maybe that should be away from London and the South East you go, the less people look at you like your an axe murderer when you say hello to them. Here its normal to at least nod to people as you pass them in the street and after you've seen them a couple of times to say hello and maybe stop and chat. When my parents moved here from Eastbourne about 10 years ago, they said they'd not felt the sense of comunity that there is here sinse the 1960's.

I used to travel a lot by overnight bus from London to Skye, there were a lot of conversations and friendships struck up between strangers on those trips.

Thinking about another thread about all the panic of going over and over every word of every conversation you had with people, I wonder how much of this fear stops people from talking to each other?

I think that's absolutely right. I like that you put 'rules' in quotation marks. Because I don't know that there actually are rules in the accepted sense. There's a high degree of chaos, it seems to me, certainly in a group where many people are involved. Perhaps, as autistic people, we want to codify it and create rules so that we can participate. That may work to an extent, but I feel it's liable to break down, because there's more to it than that, in my opinion. You have to learn the rules, then refine them, and repeat, until you achieve a state which is acceptable to you. But it's hard for us, where it's unconscious for most.

  After 2 years of experimenting and making X3 weekly 'field' studies, My observations tell me that most folks, in a conversation, will not hear or remember 75% of what's said. This is valuable info as it let's me know that if I later, in play back, find some baffling non-sequitur, it is from the another participant having taken a small fragment of a previous statement, as best as they can remember it, and carrying it forward into a new subject, sometimes based solely on remembering a single word choice.

  They tire easily of a subject and meander around like this and I've discovered that they will not, later remember much about the conversation, other than they enjoyed it or not or they may take away an impression of the other participants themselves, based on a single phrase or a manner of expressing oneself.

  I am always pleased when some one does remember what we talked about rather than my clumsy delivery, or if I've tried to clarify a point for longer than the attention span of the listener, who has already mentally checked out.

  Sometimes, also, I will overhear someone talk about a special interest of mine and try to join in, only to discover it's not a discussion on celestial mechanics, say, but someone feeling proud that they know the names and order of the planets. I learned that if I then try to elaborate and add to the discussion and get excited talking, they will resent it and avoid me in future. - I have stolen their thunder, in other words.

Homebird said:

Another thing in a group is knowing when to speak

I find it easier to just focus on the conversation rather than adding too much to it.

For some reason people would often think that because I said little that I was just a man of few words and because I often had something quite relevant to add (too much some here would say) then I was some wise man - not really the case at all but got me more cudos in the group.

Homebird said:

Sometimes I forget a word for something until later, then feel too embarrassed to say more.

I eventually got over this too - largely though learning not to give a damn about being embarrassed most of the time. I still have a gap in my mind where the word should be (I think it popped out for a coffee) fairly often but just skip over it now - changing the subject slightly helps.

Iain, I'm a trained counsellor, I'm a hairdresser, I've worked in various public facing roles over the years, of course I know what small talk and social interaction are, it was all covered in my counselling course for one thing, as was body language. I even know how to ask open ended questions. When you're in a work situation, like a salon, it's not always easy to tell someone to stop talking about their illnesses and operations, unfortunately they're paying for your time and whilst on the surface they're paying you to have their hair done, there are whole other layers to the relationship. As I've said before people tell their hairdressers things they should really be discussing with their doctor, the police or a therapist, for some you will be the only person they will speak too, if they have an abusive or controlling partner it may be the only time they have without them present. It's complicated, I think social interactions vary between genders too, what subjects you might talk about with a man, will be different to those you speak about with a  woman. You can tell when a woman wants to be closer friends with another woman when experience of childbirth, periods or menopause are raised, this is a signal of the conversation moving a level deeper. To a man that might sound very strange, talking about things that intimate with a virtual stranger, but for women it's normal, its how we learn about our bodies, you will often see younger women and girls sitting on the edges of such conversations or women in their 40's doing the same with older women who are experiencing menopause.

I remember a stand up sketch by Ben Elton once where he said his girlfriend had told him women routinely ask eachother for toilet roll if there was none in their cubicle. He ranted on about how he'd rather have his bum sandblasted at a later date rather than address a strangers ankles and ask for loo roll.

It's a shame that men don't talk as frankly to virtual strangers as freely as women do, they might end up a lot healthier, both physically and mentally.

The other thing is people tell their hairdressers so much and so freely, MI5 would do well to recruit us!

I can do the general passing the time of the day thing and I guess that is a learnt thing.

There are things though that are not so easy. I find sometimes people ask for an opinion about something or about my abilities and if it is a question I have not thought of before it creates panic trying to think of an answer and feels like having an interview.

Sometimes I forget a word for something until later, then feel too embarrassed to say more.

Another thing in a group is knowing when to speak, so often it is easier not to or by the time I think of something the topic has changed.

There is also the possible overthinking. Will what I say seem ok and afterwards wondering if I said the right thing.

Another thing that feels awkward is silences.

Then there is the feeling of exhaustion or just wanting to get to a quiet place.

TheCatWoman said:

They don't want to talk, they want to ask intrusive questions and often believe they have a right to know, they are the ones with boundary issues not me.

This is part of the rules thing though - people often push boundaries and if you don't want to give an answer then you can normally tell them it is none of their business (considered a bit rude but there are ways to do it nicely) or deflect to something else and avoid answering

TheCatWoman said:

theres only so much I can hear about peoples gruesome opperations and horrible illnesses!

Then tell them it makes you uncomfortable and ask to change the subject. They are probably looking for sympathy, maybe empathy but if you are not comfortable in offering that support then tell them.

TheCatWoman said:

You might not think you're having a go at me, but your responses seem a bit patronising and not really engaging with the points I raise

Can I ask if you ever took time to study social interactions and small talk?

Part of the point of my original post is that although we struggle, we often don't make a serious effort to teach ourself about these things where we are deficient to the rest of society.

Going to the points you raise, when someone starts talking about them, just say "oh, I don't watch that one but did you see...." and try to switch to something that you may have both seen (if anything is shared, otherwise change topic).

If you are getting annoyed with all the questions on a subject then just tell them you don't feel comfortable talking about the subject.

The rules are fairly straightforward which was why I questioned why we are so bad at learning them. The saving on anxiety by being prepared for them more than outweighs the impact when we are caught like a rabbit in the headlights.

You're assuming neurotypicals even follow the 'rules' of social interaction and small talk. They don't. It's harder than that

You have to get the right balance, follow them too strictly and you're still weird and sound scripted.

I know the rules, they just don't apply in all situations, and I've yet to learn how to tell which rules we are using today in this conversation with this person. That's an interpretive skill rather than a execution skill and I have made little to no progress.

Iain, its very hard to talk to someone about soaps etc when they want you interaction about the program, one can ask all the open ended questions one likes but not every situation is amenable to them.

Where did you come from that chatting with strangers isn't just something you do? Maybe it's a class thing, maybe it's an area thing, but I've always chatted to people at bus stops, often they'r the ones who start converations.

I think you misrepresented me, in your second quote from my post. They don't want to talk, they want to ask intrusive questions and often believe they have a right to know, they are the ones with boundary issues not me.

Although you might not want to believe it, I am actually quite good at talking to people and doing small talk, I've had jobs where talking to people is a big part of what I had to do. You might not think you're having a go at me, but your responses seem a bit patronising and not really engaging with the points I raise. I admit to playing devils advocate a bit, but there are situations where small talk is really hard and theres not a formula to make it easy.

Yes, absolutely, on your online point firemonkey! On days I'm really tired or overwhelmed or overstimulated I take a long time to get the right words, in a reasonable order, so this kind of forum is much better to organise your thoughts and words.

I do better online email/forums/and social media than I do f2f or on the phone. I do much better being able to take  the time to fashion a response. F2f  I can get very anxious/nervous and end up stumbling over my words , like I'm a total idiot.

It's funny, I ask other people how they are and expect an honest answer, but when people ask me I just say fine. But where do you start? I'm hot/cold/tired/bored/fed up/needing to eat/thirsty/desperate for a huge mug of good tea/have a huge supermarket shop to do/read an interesting book/heard some good music/had online call with friends overseas/built some lego/did some singing.

If they ask a follow-up question, I'll provide more info. I only occasionally initiate a conversation especially on the phone, I prefer email or in person. I think I've just got better with practice with in-person conversation, though I do feel awkward a lot when I don't know someone, it's hard to get a conversation started so I leave it up to the other person. I'm quite happy sitting in silence, so NT people will become uncomfortable eventually and say something.

I think as I’ve got older I have just learnt more of how a conversation works by observation. If it’s someone I’ve met before then I usually have a mental file on them and will ask the obvious questions about their children and partner. It still doesn’t get easier, I wonder if anxiety stops me from allowing a conversation to flow better, plus I’m not normally interested in the conversation and don’t feel the need to be part of it. 
I have one customer who shares a special interest if mine, conversations with him can last hours and go off on a tangent  quite easily, he is dyslexic so I wonder if it’s because both of us being neurodivergent helps and doesn’t see a barrier.

The dreaded question,'What have you been doing?' Or variations of that. Meant well, but I can't answer in a way that stimulates further conversation. Why? Because day after day after day etc for me is  being online, and doing very little apart from that. Then there's the issue of when and how to approach someone to start a conversation. I'll seldom,if ever, initiate a conversation.

I think the reasons for autistics not generally wishing to engage in small talk is down to two main reasons. Not feeling the social pressure to engage in small talk, or, if they perceive this pressure, not caring enough about the impression they make on others to do it, or to learn how to do it in the first place. 

Personally, if I got into a lift at work with someone else, I would find the awkwardness of silence to be far more unpleasant, than just saying 'hello' and commenting on the weather.

Psychoanalysis suggested that humans learn these social operations through social programming very early. Apparently, the left lobe is responsible for social linguistics. Another key is executive function and Organisation of thought. And these pathways will be strong. Pruning is part of this.

Filtering also plays a role in the ability to filter out noise and focus on the seemingly invisible language involved in small talk. So our Everything-all-at-once experience with less inhibition doesn't help. 

According to Iain McGilchrist, the Right hemisphere (sometimes this is on the actual left for some) also has access to language but it's different. In fact, much of what he talks about regarding the differences makes me wonder if Autistics are simply wired a bit better for the right. That's speculation, but it would make a lot of sense.

Small talk isn't simple from what I've read even though it sounds like a game with rules. But is sounds like playing chess with someone who's chess pieces are invisible. 

Our brains process more information, we process things often slower, differently, in different patterns than NTs. What’s in your brain - it’s also around you. We are wired differently and we can’t change it, so that’s why we can’t just naturally communicate like allistic people. I’m not sure if all of them communicate same.. other NDs also may have their challenges 

Fiona said:

I remember about 8 years ago walking down Sauchiehall St in Glasgow

I grew up not far from there and lived on Sauchihaull St for 2 years in the uni halls of residence. I get what you mean - the Scots city dwellers are a direct bunch to say the least and it makes me laugh when my friends come to London to visit and strike up conversations on the tube with strangers.

The look of horror on the commuters faces is priceless - it is as if being social is a crime there!