social interaction and small talk - why don't we learn?

We always say when we're going to the bathroom - because we only have one, so it's partly to check that the other person doesn't also need to use it urgently. But then we're an ND-ND pair.

I've learned how to do it. I've been doing it all my life. It's impossible to avoid. But at the end of the day it's just more masking because I don't enjoy it. 

Most of the time, if the conversation is relegated to small talk, and I'm not the only person in the room, I will just keep quiet. If I'm one-on-one then I really have no choice but to join in as a matter of good manners.

But I will never learn to enjoy it. 

I have also learned how to do it, similarly to Martyn - possibly for a lot longer (you'd have to ask my interactors).

But the fact the myself and Iain can do it for a while, and Martyn can do it briefly and other not at all, tells me that this aspect come easier to some of us and harder to others, so it should not be judged as something that anyone can do in the same way that mathematics comes easy to some and not others.

Being the expert that I am, I can still have the strangest interactions with the people closest to me.

My wife on several occasions: "why do you always have to announce that you are going to the toilet?"

Me: Note to self, do not say when you are going to the toilet, as it seems to upset her

(months pass)

My wife: complex questions about a programme that we just watched

Me, who is dying to go to the loo, impatiently cuts her short but unable to say why.

My wife: "why were you so impatient when I was just asking about the show?"

Me: *DOES NOT COMPUTE* How do I tell her without violating the rule? I opt to tell her anyway because there was no other way to explain.

My wife: "why didn't you just tell me that you had to go to the loo?"

OK, not quite small talk, but it shows that even the experts like me look like weirdos to our beloved NTs. The conversation was actually a lot longer and far stranger than this summary. Her conclusion was there should be no rule. Secretly, my conclusion is that now I have two rules.

I've learnt how to do it - as long as the interactions are very brief - I have a few stock phrases I say and I know a few subjects to mention with particular people. I live in a village, and passing the time of day is kind of expected. If I linger too long (or can't get away) I do find it more difficult and uncomfortable. I'm never sure when to end a conversation or move on. I have been known to just walk off. I'm not the only autistic person in our village, and I think it's a place that attracts introverts so not too much is expected. I see people generally when I'm walking my dog, and talking about the dog is pretty helpful.

So I do try, and I can pass as NT for a brief moment, it's just over any length of time that the cracks start showing.

A said:

My perspective is that it’s like telling a blind person than they can read the book if they just try a bit harder.

Unknown said:

I really do understand what you are saying but genuine connections come when we can be ourselves. 

True friends won't want you to adopt a different persona in order that you can be friends with them.

Iain said:

This is a common autistic trait and I myself have suffered from it but what puzzles me is how so many come to understand it, have the understanding and capacity to learn about it (mostly via the internet or books) and yet won't learn how  to develop this fairly simple skill.

Is it because the "rules" of small talk are too complex to learn? I've read up on the subject and am pretty sure this is not the case.

Might you be experiencing a degree of theory of mind deficit over this issue?

Some of us I think just can't be bothered with it - generally I can't. 

I know how it works 'cos I've had 60 years on the planet observing others do it. OK, so old lady at the bus stop who wants to talk about the weather, I'll oblige out of politeness because I might be the only person she spoke to all day, but in the main it's just wasting my "spoons" of social energy, so I certainly don't initiate small talk.

On the other hand, if I ask someone how they are, it's not small talk. I actually want to know and I hope people don't feel bound to say "fine" if they aren't.

My other half is ADHD and can't be bothered with it either. Irritates the Hell out of him actually.

My carefully crafted response was too carefully crafted snd has gone to spam heaven or wherever.  I don't know how I bother.

My perspective is that it’s like telling a blind person than they can read the book if they just try a bit harder.

Iain said:

Like learning a foreign language it takes dedication and a willingness to make mistakes in front of others - something I think many autists have become very risk averse because of previous traumas around it

When learning a foreign language one may be in the relative safety of a group of others who are at a similar learning level where mistakes are not much of a problem. Responses may be learned ones from others in the group. The real world doesn't work like this and people can be quite random so I think the risk averse aspect is within reason. Learning is important but what works for one may not work for the other. Social situations seem to have set rules which can be learned but actually no one follows them so it's doubly confusing. An alternative could be to accept our limitations instead of trying to push through - this could be a helpful strategy. Recognise that if an inconsequential interaction doesn't go well it isn't the end of the world. Just my perspective on this day.

Unknown said:

I think if some people are already perceived as "off", no amount of learning something which doesn't come naturally will make any difference.

I agree - it is kind of like learning a foreign language using a book - you need to practice, make mistakes and learn how it should be spoken but more importantly find a way to silence the inner monologue that so many of us have in order to focus on the task in hand.

I've seen different ways of doing this and found some that work for me but it isn't easy.

Like learning a foreign language it takes dedication and a willingness to make mistakes in front of others - something I think many autists have become very risk averse because of previous traumas around it.

Add in the common trait of change resistance and it becomes another barrier we throw in the way.

I'm fairly certain we are all capable of learning the skills, but whether the effort and discomfort is worth it to them is a different matter.

I think if some people are already perceived as "off", no amount of learning something which doesn't come naturally will make any difference. On the other hand, I'm a high masker and have probably tried to make small talk with other people who are also probably autistic but not knowing. As a high masker I actually enjoy small talk on my terms if there's absolutely no commitment (eg at the bus stop), but in more regular environments it simply adds to the exhaustion faced on a daily basis.

That’s how I feel, the Patience series at the moment has a scene when someone wanted to sit with her for lunch, “Don’t you mind sitting alone? No you will want to chat about things that don’t interest me.” Honest autistic answer, now older I’ve learnt to say, “ I just like my own company.” I then can research something on my phone and forget to eat my lunch!

Every day at work I have to have numerous phone calls or Teams messages. Inevitably people start with hello, how are you doing, did you have a good weekend/Christmas/evening, what about that weather eh?

All to ask a one sentence question with a yes/no answer.

To say I find this tedious is an understatement. I know I have a few coworkers who feel the same. It’s so much more pleasant dealing with them, where you can just message a question out of the blue without all the waffle.

I spent a lot of my youth trying to learn from failed conversations, I was the same as many others here, it was either what I had said wrongly or now I realise what I hadn’t said. Some conversations were epic failures.
I suppose it’s when the masking and scripting starts, I learnt to get by but was never really accepted, I realise a lot of autistic people struggle with not being accepted, but do we ever really accept neurotypical people for being different to us? I suppose the double empathy problem is evident. Now at an older age I can get bored very quickly as I don’t really want to chat, I can still script with people I know but still cringe when the conversation has lowered to the weather.

This is something I’ve only really understood late in life.

I have a decent mask. But it’s like a force field that hides the real me. It’s fake. A facade.

How can people develop a close relationship with a facade?

I think you may have misinterpreted what I'm saying. I don't think NTs should have to do it by law. I'm not going to tell NTs that I refuse to communicate their way. I was just trying to make a point that I don't think it should always be autistic people being expected to fit in with the NT expected behaviour when it makes the uncomfortable just because we're the minority.

I just think a bit of consideration goes a long way. I'd like a world where I could just say actually I find small talk a bit difficult, would you mind if we skipped that part and got straight to the point. That kind of thing. At the moment I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that, I think it would be perceived as rude.

Again I think Out of Sight has probably made my own point better than I did.

Obviously different individuals may require specific accommodations, but what I’ve been discussing at work is simply that people need to be understanding of each other. If someone tells you they need to do x (eg wear headphones) or can’t do y (eg go to the pub) just be understanding, believe them, don’t be a d*ck about it. 

That’s how we should treat everyone regardless of conditions or disabilities.

We’ve always adapted to people’s personalities and strengths and weaknesses, this is no different.

I do understand your 99 vs 1 point. That is the reality we’ve lived all our lives and, realistically, need to deal with now. But we shouldn’t have to and I do get a sense that things are starting to change.

Expecto_Patronum said:

I certainly would not be bullying anyone to do anything. But I don't think learning about the experiences of others is at all unreasonable either.

If you want to make it an equality issue and need to make NTs learn about us and implement communication considerations then you are effectively bullying them to change behaviour under threat of disability laws.

I think a paced process of informing the public and playing to their better nature is the most effective way to stop us being seen as a burdon on them to accommodate. Positive media role models, more coverage of explaining out challenges and the increased acceptance of its existance is the best way.

That is just my take on it though