social interaction and small talk - why don't we learn?

Iain said:

Social rules typically mean we don't start conversations with complete strangers at bus stops

We do in Scotland. :-) We can get someone's life story in a 15 minute journey. I usually get asked about my visible disabilities. I remember about 8 years ago walking down Sauchiehall St in Glasgow and someone came up to me and asked what was wrong, they expected an answer, and wouldn't let me past until I said. I usually just keep it simple...

TheCatWoman said:

I can talk about the weather, xmas and easter, but I dont' watch soaps or sport, this cuts out a huge number of "safe" subjects that aren't seasonal

The thing with this is that you don't have to contribute - learn to ask open ended questions which make it seem like we are interested and let them fill in the gaps.

Ask about their holidays, what happened in the soap they saw etc. It makes them feel interesting and that you want to hear what they have to say or think.

TheCatWoman said:

Listening's good, but some people dont' want to talk

If they don't want to talk then this also tell us something - either they don't want to talk because they are a bit like us and are just not interested or they don't want to talk to you - checking their body language will typically tell you which is which.

Social rules typically mean we don't start conversations with complete strangers at bus stops for examples - a default "good morning" type greeting is the most that anyone would expect or possibly a comment on something happens (eg a chicken chasing a giraffe down the road would merit a "you don't see that too often do you?" comment.

There are very few rules around it I found and it takes little effory to find an appropriate stock response.

If they want to talk then let them lead - no need to go pushing for it unless you really want to speak to them about something (eg they are sitting on your copy of Autism Monthly and you want it back).

This illustrates why I started this thread actually - why do we make it seem so difficult when it is easy to learn. I'm not having a go at you, just pointing out that so many of us have the same approach without realising it.

I agree with Mr T that it's about how we process information, the over stimulation and inability to filter. I think there's another part to it too and this will effect NT's too, most small talk is about a very small number of subjects, holidays, the weather, xmas, easter, soap operas and sport. I can talk about the weather, xmas and easter, but I dont' watch soaps or sport, this cuts out a huge number of "safe" subjects that aren't seasonal, my reply of 'well I live on Anglesey, whay woud I want to go on holiday?' seems to hit a bit of a bum note too. A lot of people just give up when they realise you don't have these things in common, if asked why I don't go somewhere like Spain or on a cruise, and I say I dont' like hot weather and a cruise is my idea of hell, they get miffed if not downright hostile. Asking about family is OK when you know someone a little better, but not when you first meet. It's one of the good things about having a dog, when you do have to do small talk, you can talk about the dog.

Listening's good, but some people dont' want to talk they want to interogate and pepper you with questions and that feels ways to familiar for someone I've just met at a bus stop. Some times it's good to talk about ones special interests at length until the other person either shuts up or goes away, theres only so much I can hear about peoples gruesome opperations and horrible illnesses!

Simple for me: I just don't like it. That probably needs some qualification. It's very hard work and it's rarely worth it for me. What's the pay back? Sometimes you'll get to know someone to a point where you can relax in their company. But realistically that takes years, and masking and small talk is unlikely to get me very far along that route. I'm reluctant to cultivate relationships which are such hard work. There are risks, too. Risks and few rewards.

Hullabaloo said:

Over time they'll feel more comfortable and more confident to talk about other things

This is an important point - it is a filtering mechanism to weed out those who we don't want to socialise with and is probably who autistic people have such a hard time making friends.

It is a process, not just a conversation and if we crave that contact of friendship with NTs then we need to get over the fact we are uninterested in it and focus more on the person we want to befriend instead.

The flip side of this approach is that many of us also go into "special interest" mode about them which would equate to stalker mode in NT terms so a healthier balance needs to be found.

It isn't easy to do but the rewards can be worth it and as Hullabaloo points out, it brings a feeling of validation from the other person which is another thing many of us subconciously crave.

I used to avoid small talk, because it was a boring and an unintellectually stimulating topic to hear about from others, and I didn't think I needed it. I'd rather talk about about space, or about underwater exploration, than talk about boring things like small talk.

But as I was developing more social skills and started using small talk, I've realized that other people only enjoy it, because they enjoy that you've taken the time to notice their existance, by initiating a conversation with them, by making them feel comfortable, and by taking the time to listen to them, and they deeply appreciate that. Over time they'll feel more comfortable and more confident to talk about other things, but during the first stages they're kind of too hesitant and too anxious to initiate conversations with people they don't know too much about, so small talk is a safe conversational topic that everyone will have some type of input on. 

In my opinion it is due to the way our brain processes information. In a situation where small talk is 'expected' the information to be processed can be over stimulating and while NT's can filter the information processed to what is needed us autistics have to try really hard to pick out the information that we need to process. Non-verbal communication is something that I fail miserably to pick up on and have no control over my facial expressions when processing information. I find eye contact difficult to maintain. When listening I can force myself to make eye contact but when thinking or speaking my eyes roll and wander off contact. NT's typically assume this is because of a lack of interest or dishonesty.

I think some of it has to do with non-autistic people knowing the 'rules' of small talk instinctively, so just learning it from books or even from experience isn't always enough to find it 'easy' like others might

Absolutely - most people you ask about family, or what band they said they were going to see... but this was the first new colleague I'd spoken to for a while so I hadn't learned her 'context' yet. It was just funny to reflect that we missed that bit out, and neither of us were troubled by it. I usually ask people the how are you question and a comment about the weather too. I don't mind passing the time of day on a. bus journey talking about nothing much, but at work I prefer to do work first then chat after. Generally if I get in first with the "how've you been since I last saw you?" that covers up anything I forget with my poor memory.

Fiona said:

we just got to the point of the meeting as soon as we sat down.

This was something I still get criticised for by my wife - she says it is common courtesy to take an interest in the person you are interacting with and to ask them about themselves.

I used to say I just don't care so why should I want to know - I'm there for a purpose and wasting their time on small talk is disrespectful.

For me a lot of this came from spending decades in roles where I was so busy that I rarely had time for small talk so it was reducing my efficiency. I get that it is a "nice thing" to do, but I have my job to look after (I was often a contractor so it was easy to get rid of me if management didn't like my performance).

I also tend to take on more than is reasonable for a workload, and then manage to deliver but that comes at the expense of time for this sort of stuff.

After all these decades, I think the lesson is - play their game to blend in. Performance is less important than being a good fit in a team and keeping your customers happy. I always underestimated this until my last few years in work.

You need to do the same social crud with your boss - make a mental note of their background, stories and interests as well as recent events. Simply recalling a detail and ask something "how is your son getting on after he broke his leg?" means a lot to most neurotypicals. It adds to our camouflage and gets the few traits that show to be forgiven more often than not.

Just my observations.

For me it's about compromise. There are some situations where I am happy to do the boring thing of talking about the weather or pets or children before we get to the nitty gritty. At work, I'm probably less like this than when I am out in social/informal situations. The benefit of a bit of boredom on my part is that people want to maintain friendships when you are interested in this stuff (or at least interested enough to ask about it). Once you know it's important to the other person to say these things, you don't often have to listen to the answer. So I don't think I 'struggle' with it so much as 'learn different rules for different situations'.

I met with a new colleague a couple of weeks ago, and she wanted to know people who would be good for her to contact, I wanted to know what her role was and how that could relate to the staff I support.

Afterwards, I spoke to my office-mate who asked me "So what's her background?"

I had no idea, we just got to the point of the meeting as soon as we sat down.

JD-on-sea said:

‘how are you’ or something about the weather to something in-depth and that scares off or bores the other person

So true - answering a routine question with too much detail is a problem - but how much detail is too much? 

I still don't know - it seems to be either not enough or too much - and either makes NTs think you're weird. 

Like Mark & Pegg, I would also say it’s half boredom and half not being able to do it. Oddly enough I was reflecting on this on Monday. And I realised that for me it’s not the initial small talk I can’t do or the in-depth stuff - it’s the intermediate conversation that I can’t do. I either go from ‘how are you’ or something about the weather to something in-depth and that scares off or bores the other person or I just stop and that similarly kills it. How do NTs find this so easy?

SpikeyMark said:

My own experience is one half finding it boring and the other half not being able to do it as well

Yeah, that perfectly sums it up.

This is an interesting question.

Pierre Novellie devotes a whole chapter to it inhis new book "Why Can't I Just Enjoy Things".

He goes into quite a lot of detail. He also tries to explain it - which could be useful.

My own experience is one half finding it boring and the other half not being able to do it as well - even after all my years practice. I can do it.

At 34, I've had time to learn how to 'do' small talk to some extent, but generally speaking, it doesn't get easier. 

There are aspects that stand out for me personally - large groups are much harder, I think because of the requirement to rapidly switch focus. As socially acceptable verbal responses aren't natural to me, I struggle to keep up with what to say next. 

Similarly, I struggle to extend social chat beyond initial pleasantries.

I am more successful, sometimes, with small groups, but really that depends on the topic of conversation. General chat, I have never understood. 

But conversations with a focused topic, I can do reasonably well. 

Possibly because I can understand the direction of travel.