social interaction and small talk - why don't we learn?

One thing I was thinking about today was how so many autists have issues with small talk and social interactions on a day-to-day basis.

This is a common autistic trait and I myself have suffered from it but what puzzles me is how so many come to understand it, have the understanding and capacity to learn about it (mostly via the internet or books) and yet won't learn how  to develop this fairly simple skill.

Is it because the "rules" of small talk are too complex to learn? I've read up on the subject and am pretty sure this is not the case.

Is it a confidence issue, a fear of social rejection issue, a demand avoidance issue or what?

I realise that in the current social inclusive environment we should be accepted for our differences, but that isn't really a message the 98% of non autists seem to have gotten in my experience.

The skills are pretty basic with straightforward rules so you would imagine this is right up most autists street yet some of the most capable autists I hear from here can't seem to come to grips with it to use it effectively.

I'm curious to hear your own thoughts as to why any of you still struggle with this.

Parents
  • In my opinion it is due to the way our brain processes information. In a situation where small talk is 'expected' the information to be processed can be over stimulating and while NT's can filter the information processed to what is needed us autistics have to try really hard to pick out the information that we need to process. Non-verbal communication is something that I fail miserably to pick up on and have no control over my facial expressions when processing information. I find eye contact difficult to maintain. When listening I can force myself to make eye contact but when thinking or speaking my eyes roll and wander off contact. NT's typically assume this is because of a lack of interest or dishonesty.

  • I agree with Mr T that it's about how we process information, the over stimulation and inability to filter. I think there's another part to it too and this will effect NT's too, most small talk is about a very small number of subjects, holidays, the weather, xmas, easter, soap operas and sport. I can talk about the weather, xmas and easter, but I dont' watch soaps or sport, this cuts out a huge number of "safe" subjects that aren't seasonal, my reply of 'well I live on Anglesey, whay woud I want to go on holiday?' seems to hit a bit of a bum note too. A lot of people just give up when they realise you don't have these things in common, if asked why I don't go somewhere like Spain or on a cruise, and I say I dont' like hot weather and a cruise is my idea of hell, they get miffed if not downright hostile. Asking about family is OK when you know someone a little better, but not when you first meet. It's one of the good things about having a dog, when you do have to do small talk, you can talk about the dog.

    Listening's good, but some people dont' want to talk they want to interogate and pepper you with questions and that feels ways to familiar for someone I've just met at a bus stop. Some times it's good to talk about ones special interests at length until the other person either shuts up or goes away, theres only so much I can hear about peoples gruesome opperations and horrible illnesses!

Reply
  • I agree with Mr T that it's about how we process information, the over stimulation and inability to filter. I think there's another part to it too and this will effect NT's too, most small talk is about a very small number of subjects, holidays, the weather, xmas, easter, soap operas and sport. I can talk about the weather, xmas and easter, but I dont' watch soaps or sport, this cuts out a huge number of "safe" subjects that aren't seasonal, my reply of 'well I live on Anglesey, whay woud I want to go on holiday?' seems to hit a bit of a bum note too. A lot of people just give up when they realise you don't have these things in common, if asked why I don't go somewhere like Spain or on a cruise, and I say I dont' like hot weather and a cruise is my idea of hell, they get miffed if not downright hostile. Asking about family is OK when you know someone a little better, but not when you first meet. It's one of the good things about having a dog, when you do have to do small talk, you can talk about the dog.

    Listening's good, but some people dont' want to talk they want to interogate and pepper you with questions and that feels ways to familiar for someone I've just met at a bus stop. Some times it's good to talk about ones special interests at length until the other person either shuts up or goes away, theres only so much I can hear about peoples gruesome opperations and horrible illnesses!

Children
  • I'm glad I'm not the only one who talks to people at bus stops. Some people do expect answers and aren't always that believing when you tell them the reason. I had a car accident and got hit on the head and had two black eyes amoungst other bruising, a customer in the shop I was working in refused to believe my black eyes were due to a car accident and kept saying how loyal I was to my abusive partner, he wouldn't even have it that I didn't have a partner. One of the things I've noticed is the further North or maybe that should be away from London and the South East you go, the less people look at you like your an axe murderer when you say hello to them. Here its normal to at least nod to people as you pass them in the street and after you've seen them a couple of times to say hello and maybe stop and chat. When my parents moved here from Eastbourne about 10 years ago, they said they'd not felt the sense of comunity that there is here sinse the 1960's.

    I used to travel a lot by overnight bus from London to Skye, there were a lot of conversations and friendships struck up between strangers on those trips.

    Thinking about another thread about all the panic of going over and over every word of every conversation you had with people, I wonder how much of this fear stops people from talking to each other?

  • Iain, I'm a trained counsellor, I'm a hairdresser, I've worked in various public facing roles over the years, of course I know what small talk and social interaction are, it was all covered in my counselling course for one thing, as was body language. I even know how to ask open ended questions. When you're in a work situation, like a salon, it's not always easy to tell someone to stop talking about their illnesses and operations, unfortunately they're paying for your time and whilst on the surface they're paying you to have their hair done, there are whole other layers to the relationship. As I've said before people tell their hairdressers things they should really be discussing with their doctor, the police or a therapist, for some you will be the only person they will speak too, if they have an abusive or controlling partner it may be the only time they have without them present. It's complicated, I think social interactions vary between genders too, what subjects you might talk about with a man, will be different to those you speak about with a  woman. You can tell when a woman wants to be closer friends with another woman when experience of childbirth, periods or menopause are raised, this is a signal of the conversation moving a level deeper. To a man that might sound very strange, talking about things that intimate with a virtual stranger, but for women it's normal, its how we learn about our bodies, you will often see younger women and girls sitting on the edges of such conversations or women in their 40's doing the same with older women who are experiencing menopause.

    I remember a stand up sketch by Ben Elton once where he said his girlfriend had told him women routinely ask eachother for toilet roll if there was none in their cubicle. He ranted on about how he'd rather have his bum sandblasted at a later date rather than address a strangers ankles and ask for loo roll.

    It's a shame that men don't talk as frankly to virtual strangers as freely as women do, they might end up a lot healthier, both physically and mentally.

    The other thing is people tell their hairdressers so much and so freely, MI5 would do well to recruit us!

  • They don't want to talk, they want to ask intrusive questions and often believe they have a right to know, they are the ones with boundary issues not me.

    This is part of the rules thing though - people often push boundaries and if you don't want to give an answer then you can normally tell them it is none of their business (considered a bit rude but there are ways to do it nicely) or deflect to something else and avoid answering

    theres only so much I can hear about peoples gruesome opperations and horrible illnesses!

    Then tell them it makes you uncomfortable and ask to change the subject. They are probably looking for sympathy, maybe empathy but if you are not comfortable in offering that support then tell them.

    You might not think you're having a go at me, but your responses seem a bit patronising and not really engaging with the points I raise

    Can I ask if you ever took time to study social interactions and small talk?

    Part of the point of my original post is that although we struggle, we often don't make a serious effort to teach ourself about these things where we are deficient to the rest of society.

    Going to the points you raise, when someone starts talking about them, just say "oh, I don't watch that one but did you see...." and try to switch to something that you may have both seen (if anything is shared, otherwise change topic).

    If you are getting annoyed with all the questions on a subject then just tell them you don't feel comfortable talking about the subject.

    The rules are fairly straightforward which was why I questioned why we are so bad at learning them. The saving on anxiety by being prepared for them more than outweighs the impact when we are caught like a rabbit in the headlights.

  • Iain, its very hard to talk to someone about soaps etc when they want you interaction about the program, one can ask all the open ended questions one likes but not every situation is amenable to them.

    Where did you come from that chatting with strangers isn't just something you do? Maybe it's a class thing, maybe it's an area thing, but I've always chatted to people at bus stops, often they'r the ones who start converations.

    I think you misrepresented me, in your second quote from my post. They don't want to talk, they want to ask intrusive questions and often believe they have a right to know, they are the ones with boundary issues not me.

    Although you might not want to believe it, I am actually quite good at talking to people and doing small talk, I've had jobs where talking to people is a big part of what I had to do. You might not think you're having a go at me, but your responses seem a bit patronising and not really engaging with the points I raise. I admit to playing devils advocate a bit, but there are situations where small talk is really hard and theres not a formula to make it easy.

  • I remember about 8 years ago walking down Sauchiehall St in Glasgow

    I grew up not far from there and lived on Sauchihaull St for 2 years in the uni halls of residence. I get what you mean - the Scots city dwellers are a direct bunch to say the least and it makes me laugh when my friends come to London to visit and strike up conversations on the tube with strangers.

    The look of horror on the commuters faces is priceless - it is as if being social is a crime there!

  • Social rules typically mean we don't start conversations with complete strangers at bus stops

    We do in Scotland. :-) We can get someone's life story in a 15 minute journey. I usually get asked about my visible disabilities. I remember about 8 years ago walking down Sauchiehall St in Glasgow and someone came up to me and asked what was wrong, they expected an answer, and wouldn't let me past until I said. I usually just keep it simple...

  • I can talk about the weather, xmas and easter, but I dont' watch soaps or sport, this cuts out a huge number of "safe" subjects that aren't seasonal

    The thing with this is that you don't have to contribute - learn to ask open ended questions which make it seem like we are interested and let them fill in the gaps.

    Ask about their holidays, what happened in the soap they saw etc. It makes them feel interesting and that you want to hear what they have to say or think.

    Listening's good, but some people dont' want to talk

    If they don't want to talk then this also tell us something - either they don't want to talk because they are a bit like us and are just not interested or they don't want to talk to you - checking their body language will typically tell you which is which.

    Social rules typically mean we don't start conversations with complete strangers at bus stops for examples - a default "good morning" type greeting is the most that anyone would expect or possibly a comment on something happens (eg a chicken chasing a giraffe down the road would merit a "you don't see that too often do you?" comment.

    There are very few rules around it I found and it takes little effory to find an appropriate stock response.

    If they want to talk then let them lead - no need to go pushing for it unless you really want to speak to them about something (eg they are sitting on your copy of Autism Monthly and you want it back).

    This illustrates why I started this thread actually - why do we make it seem so difficult when it is easy to learn. I'm not having a go at you, just pointing out that so many of us have the same approach without realising it.