social interaction and small talk - why don't we learn?

Iain said:

I look at it from the perspective of what people here keep saying about wanting to have friends

The friends I have are not small talkers. I really do understand what you are saying but genuine connections come when we can be ourselves. 

A said:

I think we deserve the same consideration as those two deaf employees.

I broadly agree with this, but the nub of the matter comes in deciding what the considerations need to be.

Deaf people have a single issue. A solution is fairly straightforward as you describe.

For autists our needs are all over the place with some needing them and some not. Finding a simple to understand and implement accommodation then becomes much more of a headache for companies.

Then comes our issues of interacting - some have no problem, some can fake it and some fall to bit when trying it so how do you work out how to peg a solution and how much effort needs to go into training all the staff (and future staff) to be able to communicate.

Will it work for all autists? How about bipolar and ADHD sufferers or any of the other spectrum disorders?

It just becomes massively complex and unwieldy to design a solution that does not marginalise large groups of those you are tying to help.

If you can formulate a strategy to help all these people then I would love to see it but I'm drawing a blank on a broad enough solution to be useful.

I think the example that A has given is a much better example than ramps.

I certainly would not be bullying anyone to do anything. But I don't think learning about the experiences of others is at all unreasonable either.

Thank you, this was exactly the kind of point I was trying to make. 

This is amazing that they are included in this way and that people are trying hard to learn and be more inclusive.

But your right, I don't think autism is seen the same way as other disabilities some how. There's a much greater emphasis on us needing to learn. I'm fortunate that I have an understanding employer who tries to make adjustments for me but it hasn't always been like that.

Expecto_Patronum said:

Do you also think we shouldn't bother putting in things like accessibility ramps because most people aren't inconvenienced by the lack of accessibility

The ramps require no effort from neurotypicals so this is fine. The probem is when we need them to learn stuff to better understand us and make the effort of changing behaviour to accommodate us.

I'm also not saying we (NDs) need to change to be NT. The pointI was making is that it is unreasonable to bully NTs to have to learn and apply skills for our benefit. Persuasion is much more effective to avoid us becoming demonised which is what will happen if we force them to change.

Expecto_Patronum said:

As you say it is not a 1 size fits all solution and I don't think that solution is going to work for me. I also have ADHD, perhaps that plays apart

You do have an unfortunate combination of factors that are impacting your experience here. I lack experience of this particular combination of additional disorders so cannot offer experience of solutions.

Thank you for an invigorating discussion on this subject.

There are two deaf people in my office of several hundred people.

The company pays for sign interpreters for every meeting or event they need to participate in. We also have a company sponsored disability group who have run numerous sign language training sessions, which a very large number of people have attended. People try very hard to work with them.

Given that I work in technology, I’m confident there is a vastly larger number of ND people in my office alone.

I think we deserve the same consideration as those two deaf employees.

Do you also think we shouldn't bother putting in things like accessibility ramps because most people aren't inconvenienced by the lack of accessibility? I think all humans should do what they can to make the world a more accessible and inclusive place.

Do I think it needs to be exactly 50% no, it's give and take? But do I think it'd be particularly difficult to think hmmm this person prefers talking about this topic rather than the weather, I'll do that to help them have a better day. No I don't think that would be difficult or unreasonable at all.

I am extremely against make autistic people into neurotypicals. I don't expect other people to go to ridiculous efforts but I do think there are little things people can do that just makes it that little bit easier for the other person.

I've had a lot of therapy. It doesn't silence my inner monologue. Not even slightly. In fact if anything it greatens it. As you say it is not a 1 size fits all solution and I don't think that solution is going to work for me. I also have ADHD, perhaps that plays apart.

Expecto_Patronum said:

I did say meet in the middle.

Just to clarify, you expect in any group of 100 for 99 people to all make half the effort and the 1 (autist) to make half the effort?

99 inconvenienced for the benefit of the 1.

If it takes, say 5 hours of research / readiing / practice per person then that is 495 of ND effort to 5 hours of ND effort all for the benefit of the ND.

Put in these terms does it makes sense when I say it is probably an unreasonable ask?

Expecto_Patronum said:

Unless you can tell me exactly how long my response should be, exactly how long the interaction should be, exactly how many questions I should ask in response etc then I will have a constant monologue over the top

This is why I pointed out that finding a way to suppres that monologue is the most common way to deal with it. A good therapist is your best way to do this but effort and commitment to trying are also key.

Then you can start to realise that interactions are not defined in absolutes (ie exactly how long, exactly how many questions etc) and are much more organic then you can stop treating it like a computer program and more like icing a cake - it is a rough art form with guidelines and an adaptive approach is needed.

Your approach is inconsistent with the NT approach which is probably why is doesn't work well.

Armed with the knowledge of the guidelines (from the books on conversational skills), a silenced inner monologue that is actively sabotaging you and a willingness to let the conversation flow then you can start to feel the scales fall away and you can engage on more or less equal terms (albeit with a lack of experience but at least you are now on the same page).

Anyway, that is just my experience and what I have taken from others I helped with the issue. It isn't a one-size-fits-all solution.

But if you are serious about wanting to learn this then get a therapist with the skills to guide you.

The rules may seem simple to you but to me they do not. They are not like a rule in maths that I can apply and there are also the subtleties of body language and language that can be taken literally to further complicate matters. Unless you can tell me exactly how long my response should be, exactly how long the interaction should be, exactly how many questions I should ask in response etc then I will have a constant monologue over the top saying you're doing it wrong, you should be making eye contact, they'll think your weird, you've not asked enough questions, you've asked too many questions. What is simple to one person can be hugely challenging to another. 

Yes I would like more of a social life but I'd like a social life that I enjoy and feel comfortable in. I can't stand small talk and it makes me feel extremely uncomfortable. I will do the polite answers but I would try to get out of the small talk as quickly as possible. If I know the person I tend to have default topics that I know I'm comfortable talking about and are somewhat of interest to them and so I will use that. This tends to get me through but can get me the autistic reputation of only ever talks about the same things.

I did say meet in the middle. I'm not expecting them to complete adapt for me and I do nothing. But I don't think I should have to mask more than I already do for everyone else's benefit either.

Alien0n3arth said:

For me the biggest issue is reacting. I’m unable to share the emotions with others, to comfort someone etc

This connection to your emotions issue is quite common fo autists and one I had as well.

I worked on it with my therapist to initially identify my own emotions then work on empathy so I can try to see how others are feeling too - it is a useful tool socially but more importantly allows you to experience life in more depth.

I recently watched a couple of music videos by James Blunt (Monsters and The Girl Who Never Was) and was in tears at the end - that coming from someone who could go decades without crying even after losing a parent was quite something.

Building those connections to your emotions and feeling comfortable to feel bad stuff as well as good is quite an eye opener and a big improver of quality of life in my experience.

Oh and as an aside, it has had a marked improvement in my interactions with the opposite sex and I have had more romantic offers than ever before as I suspect being in touch with your emotions is a turn on for some women.

I can sometimes pick some cues, mostly because I have a good comparing, like I see some reaction in someone and I recall automatically that I already saw it in someone else I observed. For me the biggest issue is reacting. I’m unable to share the emotions with others, to comfort someone etc. my reactions were always “wooden” as I call it. Since my childhood I saw other kids being expressive and only I wasn’t and it caused me stress and self hatred. If someone tells me a story I look somewhere else and I imagine it in my head like a movie, I see the color of the kitchen counter and the cups on it in someone’s story but I don’t look that person in the eyes. Now I know why whenever i interact with someone and someone else appears, that person leaves me and forgets me immediately and start talking to the other person. 

A said:

I do think many of us have a hardware issue that prevents us from picking up on non-verbal communication, however hard we try.

I agree.

In keeping with the hardware analogy, I think it is possible for us to upgrade our firmware that controls the hardware though - I have done this and it sounds like I Sperg has managed it too.

Exercising self discipline to silence the inner monologue during the interactions seems to work well and gives you the bandwidth to analise the conversation to work out the appropriate response.

It isn't going to turn us into fluent conversationalists but helps us have much less friction in social situations and hold almost normal conversations with only the odd foot-in-mouth moment.

I use mindfulness and some applied meditation to silence the inner monologue in these situations.

I basically agree, but I do think many of us have a hardware issue that prevents us from picking up on non-verbal communication, however hard we try.

Expecto_Patronum said:

Do you think autistic people should always be learning, as you put it , basic skills to fit in more with the neurotypical world? Or do you think that neurotypical people should be meeting us in the middle and learning to communicate the way we do?

I look at it from the perspective of what people here keep saying about wanting to have friends, wanting to fit in, wanting to seem "normal".

For context, about 1 in 50 people are autistic and I would estimate about half have social interaction issues (this is just a guestimate), so about 1 in 100 struggle with this.

If you want to engage with others socially but don't know how then do you as the 1 person in a group of 100 expect the other 99 to change and adapt in order to make it easier for you? This seems both unreasonable and unrealistic when you look at it from a numbers perspective.

So should 1 make a lot of effort or should 99 make a reasonable effort?

Expecto_Patronum said:

the rules are not at all simple.

They actually are pretty simple, but it is having the capacity to consider them when under the stress of a social interaction that is difficult.

I find that expectation of so many to change for our benefit an interesting issue, hence why I started the thread to hear opinions.

In a nutshell it's because we can't be bothered.

If you want to be able to do "small talk" well, please give the book I recommend in my bio a go. 

Once I had read that little book, I went into the field service engineer profession and (mostly) I was a hit with the customers.

It helps to have done a few interesting things in your time, and also to have read some of that "how to win friends and influence people" sort of  stuff.

It's definitely a teachable skill. I had NONE but realised I needed it in my twenties so I "loaded up the right extensions". 

Don't get me wrong, I still fail or have to make a sharp exit from the conversation, (Up t and including; "what's that over there" accompanied by really quick personal relocation) occsionally, but I can get by most times jjust by having a few stories, jokes, tid-bits of obscure knowledge etc. up my sleeve, and I can usually find something to say.

Over time I still get sniffed out by the normies, but by then they've discovered they need something I have... Like in the old joke: 

"Grandad thinks he's a chicken!"

"Time to put him in the old folks home, then?" 

"No, we need the eggs..."

Because the rules are not at all simple. It is a lot to remember whilst trying to do it at the same time. Many of us have such busy inner monologues, thinking about rules and speaking at the same time is a challenge, not to mention also processing what the other person is saying and thinking of a response at the same rime. The anxiety about is also very high which makes it more challenging. Not to mention it's purpose seems completely pointless so my motivation to master it probably isn't that high if I'm honest. 

I'll throw a question back to you. Do you think autistic people should always be learning, as you put it , basic skills to fit in more with the neurotypical world? Or do you think that neurotypical people should be meeting us in the middle and learning to communicate the way we do?

I think that’s a common autistic feature. I’ve always been able to remember details of random conversations, what people were wearing, the names of their cousin’s friend’s dog, birthdays etc in a way that seems to unsettle people.

Uhane said:

My observations tell me that most folks, in a conversation, will not hear or remember 75% of what's said.

Wow, that’s interesting! I remember from my childhood visiting my mom’s friends, I remember their furniture, I studied how they were made and I remember what they talked about. It was about visiting a palace of a countess DuPont. My mom was shocked that I remember such details, the topic of their small talk and names of those people after 3 decades. 

My brother is on the spectrum, and he had the same issue. He especially struggled when meeting new people. I know he used The Cognity, which actually helped. They have a purple logo, and I believe their waitlist is currently open. My brother experienced amazing results.

It's like asking somebody with broken arms to play ping pong.