Safety First has failed

And how has that worked out for you so far?

We internalised; whenever we were supposed to externalise.

We're older, and wiser, now. We realise how much better, and simpler, whenever we grew up.

God help the next generation.

Golly so many people around who want to punish others, I don't think it's about discipline I think it's about revenge.

Well, if we're doing quotes here...(subject to interpretations and differing translations).....I like the one that goes, "he who has a mighty sword, but chooses not to use it, is good."  I like it because if you apply the principle to the human historical record, it renders up some interesting alternative perspectives on how and why things played out.

All a bit philosophical for a Monday perhaps......but it is a bank holiday, and this is....this forum.

I’m a strong believer in traditional forms of childhood parental discipline, especially corporal punishment, given my 30 years in supermarket retailing and from listening to mothers talking about these subjects for many years, also from being surrounded by strong women all my life and living in a socially deprived area for 23 years, as well as my own family background - this is not for the parents benefit, but to equip the child for the challenges of later life in adulthood 

tbh theres a better one there with how putin uses prisoners as cannon fodder.

he willingly throws away their lives in exchange for their freedom, they be cannon fodder and if they survive they are free. but ofcourse cannon fodder doesnt survive. given they are prisoners being punished and used as canon fodder with freedom dangling over them as potential reward this is probably the better usage.

I do not believe that the role of a father is solely to discipline and chastise. Whether you choose to smack or not, good parenting is about so much more. Teaching children right from wrong, morals, respect, self-discipline, the value of hard work, charity, kindness, compassion, honesty, and most of all what it means to love and be loved. 

'I turned out so fine, I think adults should hit children!'

I am reminded of a 5 year old boy who was just happliy running across a busy street with traffic and cars everywhere, and a mother having a panic attack trying to catch up to him. She caught him once he was on the other side of the road, and grabbed his hand for safety reasons. He didn't like that she was impeding on his freedom, and she was trying to tell him not to do that ever again, but he was angry, trying to get free from her grip, and he was not listening, and was jumping and waving his arm around, but she did not let go. Of course she didn't want her child to be unhappy by lecturing him, but she also wouldn't have liked seeing her boy get injured by a car either. If children do not listen, they can get injured. 

I wish that healthy father figures were brought back. There is a balance between nurture and discipline, and a child needs both those things, to be a level-headed adult. I believe that kids need some kind of negative consequences to negative actions, but it doesn't always have to be corporal punishment. Let's say a kid steals things and feels rewarded by it, they'll keep doing it, until there's negative consequences that outweigh that reward. Some Kids might feel great when they bully others, or they'll hit others when they get mad or frustrated, even if no one has ever hit them before. Unless they get enough negative consequences that they stop doing it,  they'll continue to do it. If they keep doing that for many years, and it becomes a pattern, good luck trying to change that once they are adults. Sometimes things can't always just be solved by only hugs and kisses, although I wish things were different.

The Russians have strict discipline. Putin is disciplining the Ukrainians for defying his wishes, because he has the power to punish them and force them to do what they are told. 

The best discipline is self-discipline. Vincit qui se vincit ... he overcomes who overcomes himself.

Whoever is the carer needs to provide nurture and boundaries for the child ... irrespective of their gender or whether they are co-parents, single parents or parent-substitutes. Children need secure attachment figures who will serve as role models. "Discipline" is an over-used word ...  perhaps we should be thinking about structure and consequences as a way of helping young people to make pro-social choices.

Corporal punishment just teaches kids that someone who is bigger and stronger and has more power can force their will on someone who is smaller and weaker. It teaches compliance whilst somebody is watching.  We need a society which promotes internal moral responsibility - the golden rule of "do as you would be done by " rather than fear of external punishment. We need to teach our kids by example to be caring and empathetic, to show respect and follow the norms of acceptable behaviour.

Truly moral behaviour is doing what you know to be right, even when you know nobody is watching. 

Life, good parenting, good behaviour, progress, respect for the future, honour of the past, duality......all complex matters, that cannot (sensibly or reliably) be reduced to binary soundbite conclusions.

Just my opinion, fwiw.

ofcourse, the natural effect of people not appreciating discipline and others telling them they are wrong and setting them on a right path by a stern hand.... we have a soft society that hates a firm hand. we have a society with people that never like to hear that they are wrong, or never like to hear the word "no". unruly, disgraceful society.... but in the end they destroy themselves as society collapses without strict discipline and rule following for the greater good... and also it needs people to fight for it when russia kicks off and the softies that demonise discipline and rules will never fight to defend their society or lives. all in all society collapses the soft way it is

But Fathers are demonised, in modern society.

i think it needs both.. this is why we have 2 parents.... one that raises us with love, one that raises us with discipline.

you need both

my father punished me physically alot and shouted at me alot. it got me to hate him... but in the end it got me to avoid doing bad stuff, it got me more conscious of the world, it got me to think of others as i often would get smacked if i so much as got in the way of anyone elses path. this made me conscious of other people around me and to not get in peoples way, and to have respect and awareness of other people to not be a nuisance or ever be in anyones way.... my mother raised me with love and id do anything for her. this combo, you have both, and both work.... if you have just 1 alone you get trouble... too much love and no discipline you turn into a bad person, too much discipline and no love you be a bad person.... but you get both, you become the better person. this is why we need a father and a mother.

the mother raises us with love, the father raises us with discipline.

Ah, the "I was smacked as a child and turned out fine" line. 

Desmond79 said:

We need to restore the Position of the Father, in a Family, and the concept of Respect.

That is such a binary take on relationships and does not respect the many loving pairs / groupings of all sorts of sexual identifications.

I suspect we have reached the point in most first world societies where we are starting to see all the conventions break down, the birth rate plummet (leading to population shinkage) and the dilution from other cultures take up the slack.

In a few decades we will probably be under Sharia law anyway and all those who don't convert to Islam will be steadily removed and we go back to the medieval approach to the family unit and respect - problem solved.

As I said in another post, Desmond, you do make me laugh!