The relationships and intimacy strategy thread

Martin said:

For NTs all the body language and subtle non-verbal signalling means that before anything is said they know whether or not their interest in someone is reciprocated. I, and I think many other autistic people, are blind (or at least partially sighted) in this regard. In this information vacuum it requires a lot of courage to make any sort of advance.

Yes, I think this can be a very big barrier for us.

For me fear of rejection was a great inhibitor to starting any sort of relationship. I was unable to recognise if someone was attracted to me. For NTs all the body language and subtle non-verbal signalling means that before anything is said they know whether or not their interest in someone is reciprocated. I, and I think many other autistic people, are blind (or at least partially sighted) in this regard. In this information vacuum it requires a lot of courage to make any sort of advance.

I met my future wife in a research lab at a university. When we first met she had a boyfriend, but a few years later her boyfriend moved out of the country for work and they broke up. I had always found her attractive, being intelligent, down to earth, simpático and 'my type' physically. At the departmental Christmas party we sat together bellyaching to each other about colleagues. I came to the realisation that she was an ideal match and, in a spirit of 'now or never', I had an unusual access of courage. Soon after the party I asked her to go out to the pub. Unfortunately, we chose a pub that was close to work and after we had been there for about half an hour virtually everyone we knew from work arrived. Keeping our nascent relationship confidential was blown out of the water. For a while we were working and living about 150 miles apart and the strains of a long-distance relationship and alternating travelling each weekend put a strain on our relationship and bank balances, but eventually we managed to get jobs in the same place and about a year later were married.

As regards physical intimacy, I have a profound dislike of bodily contact with people I do not know well. However, once I know someone well and there is a degree of emotional attachment I have no problem at all with physical contact and, if appropriate, sexual intimacy.

Alien0n3arth said:

I was lucky to find him on the first day of having the account there

Wow! Well done.

Everywhere in the internet - high risk of meeting a scammer, psychopath etc. I met my husband on badoo. He was the third man who wrote me. My colleague from university told me I shouldn’t be such a loner, I need friends and man, and that I can meet interesting people on badoo. I wouldn’t say, that these people are more interesting than anywhere else, but I was lucky to find him on the first day of having the account there. Soon after I removed it and didn’t try anything else. I’ve never had many friends, if I had two, it was already a crowd for me, but I’m also not easy to break up relationship or friendship. I call it - I don’t throw people out to the dustbin, unless someone is really toxic and harmed me enough for me to kick them out (that also happened). 
Internet is really great and also dangerous. I’m happy that we have this forum and can communicate despite being far away from each other. 

This is a very good looking thread! I'll add my perspective, even if it pales in comparison to the stuff people like Debbie have already talked about:

So i've been in one relationship previously with a lovely woman who was my age and also on the spectrum. We were dating for almost a year until my departure to Thailand amongst other missteps on my part caused us to part ways cordially. (We're still friends and talk fairly frequently) What it mostly came down to for us was an issue of Intimacy and Communication, which I think are two things a lot of Autistic folks tend to struggle with when working out how to get and maintain a relationship. 

As far as the Intimacy issue went, I'm more physical in how I like to show my affection than she was at the time. We established a compromise early into the relationship where I would sit farther away on the sofa than her, and she would communicate to me when she felt comfortable for me to get closer. In hindsight I believe I pushed her boundaries a bit too far over time, but a consistent theme until the month we broke up was regular communication of our needs and working through how to address them. 

Every person on the spectrum has different needs and wants; communicating that to your partner will be essential for any relationship to last into the long term. I think my first experience ultimately boiled down to us wanting different things that couldn't be reconciled combined with miscommunication at the end. 

I also think that my Mental Health taking a dive after University definitely didn't help matters, and I wish I was willing to take a step back to sort out my issues rather than venting to other people whenever I could. This is an issue that still affects me, and I think drives some of my friends up the wall when I start venting about life and how messy my situation is. It's something I am going to be working on actively once i'm home. I went to CBT before via the NHS but it never made any long-lasting differences, and I think I may need someone more specifically in tune with Autistic patients if I can. 

When I do start looking for a relationship again, I think I would like to be with someone who is Autistic despite that first experience. Having someone who can understand your sensory needs more easily makes a world of difference in my view. But I still have work to do on myself first, and it's very difficult to love someone else if you can't love yourself. (Not helped by my general lack of self worth issues but hey! We're trying, right?)

9.  Looking inside ourselves.

Deleted User  has posted this.

Deleted User said:

It occurs to me that there is another issue which is actually well described by a quote in my bio

I've had Coginitive Behavioural Therapy (for social anxiety) and Life Coaching (for everything) and what they helped me to see was how much we hold ourselves back.

We do really have to be brave and step outside ourselves if we want to effect these changes.

I don't notice flirting, it goes right over my head, I just think they're being friendly, it wouldn't even occur to me to ask if they were. I'm sure I've missed opportunities from this, or had lucky escapes.

I think when you're older there's a general lack of ways to meet people, as either potential lovers or friends, people either seem to be part of an established group or they are a small coterie of couples.

I think it's easy to over think what we want from relationships, when you look at guides etc from "experts" they seem to me to be very biased towards social norms and many if them American social norms, such as having a "man to take care of you", it seems to mean financially, but is that really appropriate in the UK where we don't have the pressure of needing good private health care? A lot of books talk about making lists and "manifesting", manifesting seems to be a cosmic ordering service in this context and far removed from any spiritual context that it once had, of course it's you who are wrong if your dreams don't come true, do another course costing megabucks to find out why. Obviously we all have preferences about people we find attractive and those we don't, but I think unless someone really gives us the ick, then don't write them off because they're not fulfilling your tick list.

I think for us autists the need for alone time is hard for others to understand,along with absorbtion in hobbies etc. I've been told many times how wonderfully diferent I am to any other woman they've known, independent, strong, not clingy, intellegent, knowlegable etc. Until they find that I'm too all of the above and they don't like it, they don't actually want someone who can be independent and sort things out for herself, they want and expect to be asked. They don't want to be told no and why I disagree with them, especially if I'm going against what "thier pack" expects.

I lost all libido when I went through menopause and it's been such a relief, it's allowed me to be much clearer about what I want from any relationships and I realised I don't want it at all. I thought about the common denominators in my relationships, it me, I'm just not cut out for them, it made me realise how much sex was a driver for wanting relationships, that and the need to fit in with everybody else. Now I can get what I need emotionally from my animals, I get walks and cuddles, Fearn sometime answers me back when she disagrees with me, Boris the cat sat with me whilst I waited to throw up the other night. I feel liberated from the need to conform to the expectations of others.

I think I was better with a friend with benefits than a relationship as I didn't have to engage more than I wanted too or give more emotionally than I was able.

Thanks Debbie ️️

It occurs to me that there is another issue which is actually well described by a quote in my bio

8.  Intimacy.

When you think about all our anxieties and sensitivities, getting into a physical relationship can be a pretty huge bridge to cross.

I've spent a large part of my life single, living alone, without a partner and I was happy.

I've missed out on relationships too ie saying no when I wanted to say yes, or just realising afterwards that the other person was actually interested in me etc.

I had vaginismus which I only overcame in my early 30s with the assistance of a pretty wonderful sexual psychologist.

I now believe that this was very tied into my autism.

I've heard young women talk in the past about s*xual relationships (with men - NTs most probably) in a way that has amazed me and also about their own attractiveness and ability to 'control' s*xual relations.

One night stands!

This is all way out of my remit.

Deleted User said:

I think there are a number of “gates” that hinder people like me:

• finding opportunities and venues to actually meet other humans 
• being physically attractive enough to get a second look from someone
• being well enough presented not to deter people
• striking up an initial conversation
• recognising someone is interested or not
• knowing how to reciprocate if they are
• rejection sensitivity 

These points correspond with mine.

From our previous PMs and your interactions here on the forum, you would appeal to me as a partner.

However, once people meet in person, that's a whole different ball game isn't it!

Social anxiety held me back many a time.

I think there are a number of “gates” that hinder people like me:

• finding opportunities and venues to actually meet other humans 
• being physically attractive enough to get a second look from someone
• being well enough presented not to deter people
• striking up an initial conversation
• recognising someone is interested or not
• knowing how to reciprocate if they are
• rejection sensitivity 

I take a while to build a mental model of other people and relax around them so things like meeting in bars would never work for me, it has to be with repeated exposure.

In my teens and 20s I had a friend who was stereotypically very good looking. Every time we went out he’d be approached by women. He wasn’t the brightest and had desperately bad chat, but the women didn’t seem to care. While I don’t think I’m hideous, I have a much higher initial barrier to getting women to even notice I exist.

Side note: I recently saw him and he’s now bald and slightly chubby while I have a full head of blond hair and am in good shape. Ironic.

Did you meet on a dating website or some other place on the internet?

This is so complicated for me that I've found it very hard to respond.

There are so many things in the mix with regard to being able to enter into a friendship or relationship that I'm just going to start with subjects.

So:

1.  Male or female? (or neither, of course).

You and I have discussed this before.

I believe it is very hard for females to enter into relationships too if they are autistic.

However, I'm sure that it differs between us.

2.  Are you considered attractive, whether or not you are autistic?

This is a major factor and I think that if the answer is 'no' then there are lots of things that a person can do to help themselves eg. cleanliness, tidiness, smart clothes etc.

Attraction tends to start in the 1st place with looks - not always of course, but often

I believe that we tend to be attracted to people, whether as friends or other, to people similar in looks to ourselves.

3.  One of the major criteria for autism is communication differences.

So, if you think about where you differ from NTs (if it is NTs you are considering being in a 'relationship' with) then I'd say trying to work on that is ultra important.

If you are thinking of being involved with another autistic person, I know, from personal experience, that communication differences still exist.

4.  Signals. 

Do you pick up on signals?  If not, do you have to try to overcome shyness, vulnerability etc and just take a chance, if someone appears to show some interest in you?

5.  Try to drop your misconceptions - if you believe that women are just attracted to men with money + a nice car etc irrespective of their personality, you are so wrong.

6.  Eye contact - do you make eye contact?  If you don't, this can put people off until they get to know you as a person.

7.  What do you do to meet people?  I've had conversations here in the past where people don't go out to meet others, in clubs or crafts events - anything really.  If you don't work either or only at home, being isolated is going to make meeting someone so hard unless it is via the internet with the difficulties that can also involve.

That'll do for now, but my mind is teaming with the various issues involved.

Great thread, by-the-way.

I think that I have been incredibly lucky. My wife (together over 20 years) seems to like some autistic traits, and I think that two of her friends have autistic traits. My wife is totally NT and is neither introvert nor extrovert. I can say some of the things that she liked about me (this isn't to say that these are a guaranteed success with women!)

• Honesty - her previous relationships consisted of a lot of (mind) game playing. I was just always honest. She saw that as 'maturity' at the time, but she does still value it even though it often gets me into trouble.
• Never losing temper - her dad was a bit of a shouter and rather than looking for someone like that she preferred my even temper.
• Kindness and thoughtfulness - I tried my best to be thoughtful and am naturally kind.

I thought it important to point these things out because there is a seemingly big movement at the moment for not being a nice guy getting the ladies. All I can say is that these techniques may well get (some types of) ladies, but they won't be healthy relationships.

If I think of other things, then I will come back to this thread.

Oran G. Utan said:

"It is not a lack of love, but of friendship, that makes for unhappy marriages." - Nietzsche.

This quote gets to the real heart of it - the initial passion of being "in love" will gradually fade as the years go by, but you can be best friends "until death do you part"

I would like to add, that internet can be a good place to meet someone, but it’s also a place where we can meet scammers. I would have to think of some red flags. 

a really good thread! 
As I was always a loner and terrible at flirt, also bad at catching social cues, it happened to me numerous times that someone wanted something from me (kinda) I felt uncomfortable and walked away, afterwards I heard “are you stupid? He was so handsome and wanted to know you better!” 
ok, so who is handsome or who’s not, it’s of course a subjective thing. I always liked a man who was not on the top list of my female peers. But that’s fine. 
For me just flirting doesn’t make any sense I guess, a relationship since the very beginning must be more meaningful and deeper. I always laugh that if the internet did not exist, I would have become a nun. 
i found my husband in the internet. He was first to text me, I saw his photo with a nice and a bit mysterious smile. We texted quite long before our first date. There were also calls with camera. Since the very beginning this relationship is very special, for me what was most important: I didn’t have to pretend to be like others, we could talk whenever we wanted and whatever topic, about the world, cultures and geography, books etc. for me a simple gesture is much more important than flirts, when looking for the next half it’s also important to define your own expectations. In my case I knew I need someone stable, with some sense of humour, far from reckless behaviour, drug or alcohol abuse are a big no, someone who would respect and care. 
I have never looked for one night adventure because I need the emotional connection to be comfortable enough for intimacy. I also didn’t look for someone “perfect” and not looking for someone who would expect me to be perfect..that’s all I can say as for now I guess

A youtube channel I can recommend is JimmyOnRelationships. He does a lot of shorts that are concise and direct examples of issues that can crop up in relationships, explained in open detail. Not everything he offers will be directly suitable for us, because it's not catered for autism. But you can always learn something, if you have the awareness to disseminate the helpful information from the unhelpful, and how it can apply to you.

From personal experience, you have to learn what the little things the other person likes about relationships are. When asked, people tend to go for the big things like "Honesty, equality, loyalty" and all that. While important, what you need to look for are the things that make them feel loved and cared for in moments. A touch when you have to step away, to let them know you're always aware of them. Remembering their commitments like you would remember your own. Remembering things about them in general.

Try this. If you have someone you like, keep a diary of things you learn about them. I'm not talking extreme detail dossiers like some stalker serial killer file. Things they like, important dates, names of their friends and family. It means a lot to people when they talk about something personal and you bring up something that proves you were listening. Just make sure to keep it cute, because the last thing you want is for the other person to find the diary and for it to look like a CIA document.

And remember. "It is not a lack of love, but of friendship, that makes for unhappy marriages." - Nietzsche.

For me I was almost oblivious and I'd be single if it wasn't for the attention of others. I suppose I'm not awful looking and have a reasonable sense of humour which I tend to use offensively.

When you have a really low opinion of your self and others show interest it can be wonderful.

I met my wife at a pub quiz, I'm a fact sponge so quizzes are something I excel at. We are different but reasonably similar. (Just don't tell her)

Lotus said:

so for straight girls reading this, remember that guys may be very shy, and so, they are often grateful that a girl shows an interest in them. They are not always good at recognising flirting

A very, very useful point.

I would advise being direct about asking about the flirting thing from both sexes - try to make it a bit of a joke (eg "are you flirting with me? The last time that happened you didn't need a mortgage to buy a stick of butter.") and watch for the body language on the response.

If they are playing with their hair, exposing their neck or inner wrist etc - there are loads of these worth knowing about:

https://www.wikihow.com/Read-Women's-Body-Language-for-Flirting

These are all only indications  but if you observe them then consider asking for a date later on.

I have heard from some on this site that they can't process this info when in the situation, but I would say that implies they are not prepared. If you are serious about it then you need to learn the main signs, practice watching it and be able to do it in your sleep so it is an automatic detection for you.

Lastly, learn to make positives about your special interests. They can be great conversation items and it shows when you are passionate about something. Learn to spin the positives of the interests and also to flip any questions asked to you in order to find out about the other person.

For example if they ask what is your favourite hobby and you are a sci-fi fan then tell them you love reading about possible future visions of the world and the possibilites they involve. It stimulates your curiosity and imagination and gives you hope that there can be a positive future.

Then - "but what are your hobbies?" asked to the prospective partner. Listen and take notes so you can ask follow up questions and take an interest in her. Find something to praise her for is always a bonus (ie "I've never met anyone as big a fan of Rick Astley as you before - I'm impressed") and if you feel brave, add a negative at the end to get her to respond (eg "he doesn't have a restraining order against you does he?"). Keep it light hearted and not an insult.

There are lots of good conversation ideas here:

https://www.paired.com/articles/flirty-conversation-starters

under the section "18 flirty conversation starters for date night"

Don't learn them verbatum as recalling them will probably come over as robotic - maybe keep a list of these on your phone to look at when you need a fresh idea.

Just keep questions open ended and typically the partner will help carry the conversation if they like you.

There is a huge amount to cover to look at al the aspects of dating ND/NT but this is enough from me for now.