What's gender?

Trouble is they are so rare, and also not all the same anyway. They wouldn't want to be treated as an experiment. I would think they might need to pick their gender before puberty unless they chose to remain as they were.

There are people who identify as animals and get surgery to appear more like the animal they identify as... I don't understand that though. Usually they are the wrong size for the animal and no amount of surgery can make it work.

they sorta need to research it alot more, instead of change them let them grow up like that to see how it works out, to see how puberty works and how the body ballances the two genders in one...how their body structure turns out whether it becomes more male or more female and their levels of testosterone and so on. alot of stuff can be learned from allowing that to go ahead and study it.

aye thats true, alot of defects are rare too but they are harmful and make life difficult. 

but id consider a born hermaphrodite to be one of the only true none binarys and theyd have my respect if they stuck with that and was allowed to embrace who they are,  theyd have more validity to it due to being naturally that way by birth.

Yes, or at least be allowed to grow old enough to be able to choose which gender they want to pick. I read a sad case study of someone born that way and assigned female but felt very strongly like a boy.

When I was a young man there were two genders, male and female. If there were any others I never heard of them. Gender in those days was never a topic. It was never in question, you were one or the other. No in betweens. Of course you had some who would go drag but in those days it was mostly for entertainment purposes, something you would see in a play or something of the sort. 

I do confess to finding it difficult to fathom gender and how it appears to have changed over time, specifically in the last few decades. In my mind there are only two genders. I don't understand how anyone can be more than male or female. In my life I was brought up with the knowledge of two genders and back in those days there certainly was no changing gender like you get today. I'm not saying people should be shamed, certainly not. But I do struggle with understanding this. I do believe people may need help with these gender feelings they seem to have.

My good lady and I were in discussions on this not so long ago. In my mind, if you decide you aren't a gender or are a gender other than male or female then perhaps you are needing some medical assistance from a skilled professional. What makes someone another gender? Feelings and thoughts I would assume, it can't be based on what you see as you will either see a male or female looking back at you. So it has to be based on how you feel. But here is my problem and my wife did at least agree here.

Where do we draw the line?

If I were to start saying I'm not a human I'm a God, based on feelings and thoughts I don't feel right as a human then I would be locked up. That would be insanity. No one could be a God. But these other genders, somehow they exist and are deemed normality these days. I cannot fathom this. I have tried, believe me I have but I can't get my head round this. How can you be more than one gender or not have a gender? In my mind these do not exist. How could they? You will still have a male or female body. So it is just your feelings, your mind telling you how you are different. Again, if a man or woman feels they are God or possess powers they will swiftly be detained under a Section of the Mental Health Act but if it is gender related it is accepted and understood by the majority.

I am still trying to understand this. I don't have a problem with it but I do struggle understanding how it is considered normal when back when I was young it would have been considered madness. If it was physical differences in your body then yes I could accept this but everything is based on what you feel and think these days and I don't think it's right.

My entire life and everything I was taught and brought up on has changed and continues to change. I find this difficult to grasp.

But just because somethings rare doesn’t mean you can’t genuinely want to be it. How many people wish they were born with the genes to be a super model or an Olympic athlete. If a few people genuinely wish they were born intersex I don’t have a problem with it. But I don’t think that applies to most people who call themselves non binary.

aye but hermaphroditism is a real thing people are born as, but its VERY VERY rare and its usually instantly fixed and the doctors make a choice which one you become..

which in my opinion, i dunno, im not too clued up on the problems that rare event would cause but if no problems are caused from it i believe they shouldnt be changed and should embrace who they was born as. a rarity like that if it isnt a problematic defect that causes harm should be embraced i think. 

Caelus said:

edit: but then theyd have trouble defining what none binary is, what is outside man or woman, they dont know, they dont have a name for it

But we do have a name for it. Historically it was hermaphroditism and in modern medicine you’d say intersex.

I mean to an extent you have a point. Because my understanding of non binary is that you reject both genders bodily norms or you embrace both genders bodily norms (or some mix of the two) but comparatively few of those who call themselves non binary seem to have any desire to change their bodies (which I appreciate is different from the practicality’s of actually doing it)

a lot of them seem to use it as a short hand for gender norm non conformism … which as far as I’m concerned isn’t a gender it’s just everyone’s god given right if they want to do it.

a lot of non binary people seem to have adopted a non binary identity specifically  to vilify those who treat them in a stereotypical gendered way.

and if you want to defy gender norms go ahead that’s what I say, but don’t vilify people for starting from the assumption that you will adopt gender norms …

you know if you genuinely wish you’d been born as some form of hermaphordite fair enough I wish you the best. But it’s a little annoying when people who clearly don’t feel that way insist on being called non binary.

I know. Although neither bothered to get gender out of their own languages while they were at it! And the Vikings pared down their writing system so they could have done their language at the same time.

It would have bothered me less if all languages agreed that tables were masc and chairs were fem, but no consistency even within the Indo-European family tree! And with all that, is that where footstools and occasional tables come from, what the furniture gets up after humans go to bed?! But only in Europe of course...

thing with none binary is it gets misused...

a person cant say they are none binary... but then say they are trans man to woman or something... because that is still inside the binary they just changed from one to the other inside that binary.

to be none binary a person has to say they are neither a man nor a woman but something else outside of that entirely. that is true none binary. but most people using it still call themselves a man or a woman and are still inside the binary themselves. which harms its definition and power as a word.

edit: but then theyd have trouble defining what none binary is, what is outside man or woman, they dont know, they dont have a name for it, because its sorta made up... after thinking on it myself the only conclusion i came to is that theyd have to make it like a sexuality where from straight and gay they had to go in between to make asexual... therefore none binary is redundant, they have no name for any other gender...  the only thing they could really validly say is instead that they consider themselves Agendered....

People may find this article interesting. (https://inews.co.uk/news/non-binary-american-uk-stuck-legal-limbo-gender-2242643)

about 25% of the world now legally recognises some form of non binary gender. The uk does not. The person in question is legally recognised as non binary in the country of origin. They have applied to get their non binary gender recognised under uk law. In principle the body involved has agreed. The paper work has been issued. But even if they get that paperwork other government bodies like the passport office and the dvla are saying they might not go along with it.

that said with  so many people with an X on their passport coming to live in the uk the government may be forced to make some sort of rule to account for their status at some point. At which point pressure to extend that rule to UK citizens will inevitably be brought to bare.

AuTriker said:

Why do some languages call a table masc, some call it fem and some call it neut?! So weird and pointless.

Old English had three genders, masculine, feminine and neuter. You have to thank the Vikings and the Normans for simplifying matters for us.

Like you and several others here, I don't have a strong enough sense of gender to mind which I am. I am female because my body is female. I was not impressed when it grew boobs and started to menstruate as both of those things are inconvenient and uncomfortable and I dislike them. But I don't feel I want to be male instead. I do think if it had been an option to just not bother with puberty I would have picked that. But since I do have hormones I do have sexual feelings, which can be enjoyable, although they can also be inconvenient. I have always wondered about why some/most people seem to care so much about what gender they are.

I would be more bothered if gender roles were rigidly enforced like in many societies today and most in the past. I am afraid of the idea of pregnancy and childbirth, so developing that vulnerability scared me, and in one of those societies I would have had to find some role which avoided that, like being a nun. Also I am not interested in many of the traditionally female things, apart from textiles which is a special interest. But other of my interests are either neutral or what used to be regarded as male.

I identify as female because I have many shared bodily experiences with most people born female, although I experience them differently to what might be the majority, since I find periods so unwelcome and have never wanted children. I was always told my body clock would kick in some day but it still hasn't and as I expected, perimenopause has occurred first! But I think of myself as a person more than as a woman, in fact I still feel some discomfort with that word, maybe I feel more like a girl? But I am far too old for that. Female seems more comfortable than woman. Words are weird. Probably I am what Ausomely mentions as autigender.

One form of gender which has been missed in this discussion is grammatical gender! I find this concept even more puzzling than societal gender. Why do some languages call a table masc, some call it fem and some call it neut?! So weird and pointless. I think it has something to do with morphology, but even that is inconsistent.

I think gender is biology, gender roles are social constructs. Genders exist because of evolutionary pressures that create a premium for mechanisms that mix up genes, leading to genetic diversity. Most things that affect the fundamentals of the human condition have biological causes. This includes homosexuality and transexuality. I do not think that people choose their sexual orientation or their gender identification. Though societal norms have an influence on their expression, they are overwhelmingly biological in origin. I draw a distinction between gender as a biological concept and gender identification.

but isnt that contradicting what you said though? so social constructs are important now? but originally you used the term to render things unimportant and to be cast aside? 

anyway i work with many people who use many languages, i dont mind if they speak indian, i even try to pick up and use some of their words for the exoticness and fun of it. i dont mind if they use naughty words in their language and even use it against each other and myself, i quite like it and it makes for some fun. 

Gender is what your brain thinks it is. Biological sex are the genitalia you are born with.

I think gender is a social construct, it is a fluid identity. Gender is much more complex and nuanced than the societal binary of male and female. 

Have you heard of the concept ‘autigender’? Autigender describes the fact that being autistic can significantly influence our experience of gender identity. I think this definitely applies to me.

You say “TRUE, REAL transgender people represent 0. 1% of the population”

can you quote your source for this statistic please?

and who defines “TRUE, REAL”, you certainly don’t, in fact no one has the right to define this.