Isolated NT in a relationship with chosen ASC person

Nick said:

Even though I would like him with me more, and polishing the car less!

You definitely need to feel that he is with you 'enough'. You need this need to be met, but probably in a different way. It won't necessarily be chatting all the time, you need to find your signals and your rituals. 

Consider what could be an acceptable to you signal that your partner is with you when he is polishing the car? Or how can you signal to each-other that you are back together after polishing the car. Those routines and little things.

I busy myself if agitated, or needing to have agency or to have a sense of “control or agency” at times when I feel it may be lacking. Being physically “busy” also helps to distract a “busy mind of thoughts” or facilitate recovery or processing time. 

Self-soothing behaviour, if you like

I am sure my partner would agree with this 100%! I can see him becoming overwhelmed with other peoples emotion, or his own – that he doesn’t always understand where it’s coming from!

This weekend we had a change of plans, so yesterday he had the entire day out polishing the car (around 10 hours). Last night he was completely exhausted, but seems to be in a phase of meeting to be constantly busy?

I have tried to suggest downtime in the past, but he does still seem to find this very difficult. It concerns me as when he doesn’t stop he seems to be very self-critical and anxious.

I am all about cosy and calm, however he seems to need to be doing something physical to take his mind off something a lot of the time. In the future it is our aim to have more space at home, so he have days alone doing the building/making that he wants. Even though I would like him with me more, and polishing the car less! 

Thank you so much. Your response has been really helpful. I will have a look at the book you have recommended too. I really am grateful to have people respond to me so personally on here. Lots of the things you, and others, have said really resonate with me and up until now the people in our life just don’t understand (or don’t believe in it)! It’s amazing how many supportive people are here helping each other out with knowledgeable experience. Means the world x

Lotus said:

I realised that I was often not telling him what I wanted to do in advance, but getting annoyed when he wasn't ready to do what I had planned in my own mind but had forgotten to tell him!

Very true... being able to articulate wants, needs, what we struggle with etc helps not only to promote greater self agency but allows others to understand us better (I.e it’s not “you”... I’m just in this space atm). That has the potential to work well in any relationship if both parties listen, respect and are mindful of each other.

I feel emotion but at times struggle to find the words to express it. Or become an elected mute as I feel the emotion will pass or not be entertained. Just as the neurological system can be less than efficient in handling sensory input, so can it be with emotional input.  A person with Asperger's may feel raw emotion, but not be able to immediately identify it or its cause.  Not only does this cause breakdown in communications in common, everyday situations.

The inefficient processing of emotion can be very draining - as the emotion temporarily takes over it can impede awareness and rational thought.  The emotional warning signs that are meant to protect you from difficult or harmful situations may malfunction, or work with such a delay that they lose effectiveness.   This means that they may be less than prepared to defend themselves verbally (or, in bad situations, physically) in an argument or conflict. 

A gentler, more mindful existence works best for me.... and, as you allude, opportunity to have quiet spaces. 

No problem, I'm glad that helped.

As Pixiefox has recommended, "A Field Guide to Earthlings" is a fantastic and powerful read. I thought I knew a lot because I've managed to 'fit in' socially for so many years, turns out I don't know much at all!! It seems the older I get, the less able I am to mask myself. I'll leave you with a funny example:

At my nephew's birthday party yesterday (a big, loud soft play place for kids! I did have an urge to get out but on the whole I was fine) I was talking to a family friend. We're both into cars and he asked how my focus was (meaning my car). I looked at him confused as to what he was asking and I said 'Sharp thanks. Why you asking??'. Confused to my weird response he then asked 'How's your Ford Focus?'. I then felt a bit daft but it's these things I'm starting to smile at now. With all the darkness, there's lots of light too!

Nick said:

Thank you so much again. This all makes so much sense. Today when our plans were scrambled, I approached things so differently and it’s was fine (after an hour). I need to be the partner, not the impartial listener - as you say, we all carry baggage... I have always tried to be the ‘emotional care taker’ and funnily enough my partner has been the caretaker in previous relationships too...

No problem at all Nick, like I said I'm glad to give some insight, if I can. I was always very meticulous with planning and time, so I get that sort of situation. My ex was the opposite, but over time things met in the middle. She'd just take it in her stride, and I'd be wound up like a spring. She'd be woefully unprepared, and I'd be completely tired out planning or worrying if I'd forgot something, or we'd miss trains and the like. I'd be emotionally tired out from all the planning, but she'd have forgotten something she needed. After a while we'd spoke about where we'd ruined the day, or made it less enjoyable, and in her case made a completely wasted journey. We'd argue, or point out where we'd gone wrong. After a while we started to pick up on each other's behaviour, or where one person had done something right. I'd never forget a thing, and we'd get to where we were going, even if it was late, calm, due to how laid back she was. No wasted journeys, or being tired out before I got there. We turned things that we saw as each others cons into pros. Lots of trial and error, but some of the situations actually turned into running jokes. You can't be the sole emotional caretaker, there are situations where you just have to muck in, and use each others stronger points to make life easier. There must be things you are great at, but also things you aren't so great at, the same for your partner. Doing something practical can be as much as an emotional gesture as an actual emotional gesture. I'd say practicality is quite comforting as someone on the spectrum. Getting the job done was, to be frank, quite a turn on for me!

Nick said:

We’ll learn together and that’s the commitment part.

Just make sure you both learn, and no more being a release valve, either way!

Nick said:

I’m actually very glad my partner has started the process of being diagnosed, even though it has taken 30+ years. It means I can change, and support him as much as he has done me. This phase, I feel, is just that. A phase of stress that’s making us both anxious as we pick up each other’s feelings.

He might actually relax more after diagnosis. It's a very strange phase. You can get caught up in the whole exploring autism thing. During and after diagnosis there is a lot to take in. All ASC people are different, we share qualities and traits, but there are things that apply to some that don't apply to others. You can sort of lose yourself in the experience. He will learn strategies to cope too, but it's best not to get lost in the whole experience. It's a good time actually in life to recognise strengths, and learn to manage challenges. When he understands how it all fits into his life, things will be easier. I hope you both come out better for it all.

Nick said:

I feel we can be vulnerable with each other in a way I don’t think we have ever been with anyone else, just want it to be the secure loving environment it should be for that.

That's a big thing right there. I'd never had someone I could be vulnerable around, and neither had my ex. I'm either expressionless and stoic, or goofy. She was either totally nonchalant, or goofy. So not much to read, or make sense of! The way we grew up, my ASC, and just the whole scene we came out of made us pretty bad at expressing ourselves. We learned so much, and faced down a lot of demons. Speaking for myself, I couldn't have done it without her. I'd say our lives benefitted from that, even though we aren't in a relationship anymore. One thing I will say is that we were ones to address something that needed to be addressed, so we never had anything lingering around. Sometimes badly, but it was resolved, and gone from our lives.

I hope the process goes well for you both, and you find peace within each other.

All the best.

Hi Nick, I've been reading your posts and replies and I don't know how much help I can be but I thought I'd share a bit about my relationship in case it gives you any other perspectives.

I'm a middle aged female "Aspie" and I've been with my partner (also on the spectrum) for 40 years. Unfortunately we didn't know until a few years ago that we were AS - we didn't even understand what autism was for the majority of our relationship!

Despite both being Aspies, being different genders makes a difference plus we have different personalities and had different childhood experiences, which means we can react differently.

We have had plenty of arguments over the years, but finding out about how Autism affects people and how we are different to most other people has made a difference. We have been able to discuss what things trigger our anxiety and our reactions to them, so we are more aware of each others state of mind. I explained that if I go quiet and cry, it's an involuntary autistic "meltdown" and I just need some quiet time to calm down and get my emotions under control. I realised that I was often not telling him what I wanted to do in advance, but getting annoyed when he wasn't ready to do what I had planned in my own mind but had forgotten to tell him! We're also both more mindful of when something is bothering us - for instance if we're out in a shopping centre or on a bus where one of us is getting overwhelmed by a sensory input, we'll just say we need to get out, and the other one will know that something is wrong and cooperate with leaving that situation to prevent stress levels rising . I believe it's stress that causes most arguments, in my experience.

Many books focus on autism and how it affects people, but us Aspies need to know how to understand NT people too. The book that helped me most with this was "A Field guide to Earthlings" ( an Asperger guide to NTs) by Ian Ford.

Thank you so much again. This all makes so much sense. Today when our plans were scrambled, I approached things so differently and it’s was fine (after an hour). I need to be the partner, not the impartial listener - as you say, we all carry baggage... I have always tried to be the ‘emotional care taker’ and funnily enough my partner has been the caretaker in previous relationships too... I think it’s a role I snap into when there’s something up, to save me from realising my real feelings I guess. We’ll learn together and that’s the commitment part. I’m actually very glad my partner has started the process of being diagnosed, even though it has taken 30+ years. It means I can change, and support him as much as he has done me. This phase, I feel, is just that. A phase of stress that’s making us both anxious as we pick up each other’s feelings. I feel we can be vulnerable with each other in a way I don’t think we have ever been with anyone else, just want it to be the secure loving environment it should be for that. Thank you again so much for chatting x

No problem whatsoever Nick. Glad to try and give you some insight if I can.

Nick said:

I completely agree with you about the right and wrong. I think it helps my partner to have things either black or white, for one person in a discussion to be ‘correct’.  Or at least that is the impression that I get. I do try and remind him we are both on the same side, and if one of us is unhappy neither of us are winning.

I think that that might be all the more reason to stick to your guns in certain situations. There are things in a relationship that will keep cropping up, they have to be addressed or they just boil under the surface. The best thing you can do, in my experience anyway, is when things like that come up, you can't back down to accomodate him. You won't have closure, and he won't know how you feel, leaving him confused or at worse, angry. Then after a while it will crop up again, and it will just keep reoccurring. Over time more and more issues build up, so it's best not to have a backlog! Things that are harboured will get dragged up when you are trying to address someting that's just happened. I was lucky with my ex, she would deal with things quickfast, and never drag the past up because the things she couldn't move past got addressed. We are similar in that sense. We aren't together anymore, but there are no ill feelings. That's probably my best friend.

Nick said:

And I think my partner would hold his hands up and agree with you that I am used as a release valve sometimes, as I place myself in a position for that to be possible.

This is a problem. You recognise it though, and you say he does, so there's a foundation to build on. You shouldn't feel guilty or blame yourself for putting yourself in that position, he has agency, and no-one should be there simply to vent on. To me, personally, that's abuse. If you are feeling that it's your fault, that's something you must get over. It's not right to feel that you are there for a release valve.

Nick said:

I have a background in counselling and sometimes I feel like I am required to be too impartial, and have tried to put my feelings aside to address other issues my partner has experienced with friends and family members in the past. This is something that we have both spoken about previously in the relationship, and explore as an ongoing theme!

Well maybe it's time to leave work at work! I can understand what you are saying, but in my experience with counselling, a lot of the solutions given are done by way of coersion or auto-suggestion, with people on the spectrum, they will either pick up on that approach, or not take the queues. That either means frustration, or confusion. Neither is good! My ex and I had a pretty amazing lot of baggage, but sometimes things just have to be tackled head on with face value. We'd talk about stuff in our past, she grew up in a house with quite a few drug addict siblings, but is a University graduate with her own business, and I've not always been the straightest arrow. We've basically seen a lot, not to mention the fact I wasn't diagnosed all the time we were together. If we were bumping heads over something though, that took paramount importance. Stop trying to analyse or counsel him, and start being a partner at times!

Nick said:

Relationships are complicated whoever they are between - at times my partner and I just speak a different language so it is about preserving the relationship and respecting one another, whatever the differences.

It seems to me that you have a lot of things figured out. It just needs the right thing or person to make things click. I'd say you've hit the nail on the head there about respecting one another. It's a two way thing, whether it's an ND-NT, ND-ND, or NT-NT relationship. Best thing you can do is not let things bulid up, and have the trust, plus respect to get closure when issues that need it come up. If you can't get to that point at sometime, it might be fairer on both of you to throw the towel in, but reading through, it's like I say, you have the blueprint of sorts and hopefully you both put it together.

All the best

Tinyexplorer said:

Cloudy, we don't need to argue, we are not opponents, not hate figures.

We don't need to argue, or agree for that matter, we aren't opponents, and contrary to your previous aspersions I'm far from "defensive about hate groups". That was a cheap shot, and baseless.

Tinyexplorer said:

We are all wearing the scars of the past which can be triggering.

Being misrepresented just because someone doesn't agree with what you are saying is irksome, and underhanded. I wouldn't call calling you out on that "being triggered". I'd call it a reasonable response to false representation, not an overreaction that can be reframed by calling it "being triggered". It's there in black and white so people can see it for what it is.

Tinyexplorer said:

Let's make piece.

There wasn't any conflict there, as I said I don't appreciate being tarred with a brush, by someone who knows very little about me. 

Let's move forward then.

Tinyexplorer said:

I love the mountains in your profile, which artist is that?

Mi Youren. It's called Cloudy Mountains. Hence the name.

Tinyexplorer said:

I am really touched by what you wrote, that colours have sounds.

I have Synaesthesia as part and parcel of my ASC, so they literally do. There is some overlap between the two conditions, it's far more prevelant in people on the spectrum.

Tinyexplorer said:

Is it why you like they grayscale landscapes, they are not overstimulating?

No, I just like that painting in particular. It's unusual for a painting of that era to have much background on it due to the ethos of the movement.

Tinyexplorer said:

I love Chinese and Japanese landscape art.

I like the train of thought that some of the Taoist paintings convey. There are portraits where the subject is miniscule, and the landscape dominates.

Cloudy, we don't need to argue, we are not opponents, not hate figures. We are all wearing the scars of the past which can be triggering. Let's make piece.

I love the mountains in your profile, which artist is that?

I am really touched by what you wrote, that colours have sounds. My mother was like that, I didn't inherit that. Is it why you like they grayscale landscapes, they are not overstimulating? I love Chinese and Japanese landscape art.

Yes! This is what we have been working to do. I have not seen it explained by the 'double empathy problem'. It's very interesting and will be reading more. It sums us up really, we really want to be there for one another but don't always seem to be hearing what the other means. Like there's a flter distortion between us. When it happens over and over, as Cloud7's partner, I need a cuddle and kind words. And at the same time, my partner needs silence and no stimulation. It upsets both of us.

I do think I meant that I was experiencing disrespect towards my boundries when I said the 'consideration of my feelings' comment. I was being told off for trying to do something for myself whilst in high levels of pain, and passing out. Whist I'm being told I'm wrong rather than being validated, it does feel as though I'm being kicked whilst down. I wasn't trying to talk... I guess what I was saying was 'collapsing was enough to tell me I'm incapable, you telling me I am too is hurting me'?

We will continue to work on wording and communication! I do feel our current problems are due to stress my partner has little coping straegy for - and how much energy he is able to put into a relationship on top of all of that. As he says, he is paid to talk to people at work! I would always rather he said that he needs time out, that shout though. And that is something he understands, until he becomes overwhelmed and then I don't know what's up. It's tough to feel like a sounding board then.

It's going to mean effort from both sides.

This is why you need to break thing ping-pong dynamic of over-reaction and counteraction of the other's supposed incorrectly assumed intentions  The main underlying problem is not who is right or wrong. 

It fact, nobody is neither right nor wrong, you both are misreading and misunderstanding each other and are both pushing each-other's buttons so each feels they are right and the other is unreasonable.

Of course channeling frustration towards the partner is wrong. But this is the unsuitable reaction that is secondary and should disappear if the primary problem of mutual understanding and effective communication is resolved.

The main thing is to establish true mutual understanding, then you both would stop triggering each-other and feeling being wronged.

Thank you very much for your response. This is spot-on. At the beginning of any relationship there is always a time where we kind of try and figure each other out, it was during this time around a year ago that we started to explore a ASC diagnosis for my SO.  The dynamics with what happens in around the house is further complicated as until two years ago I was independent, and am now disabled.

Which causes further low-level stress as there are things that need to be done differently when I’m having a good day versus when I’m having a bad day. The change in routine and planning seems to cause a rumble for around 24 hours, so we both try to tread lightly. 

The things I do (that are seen as inefficient, or energy wasting) further exasperate my partner if he feels he could do something instead of me too, because of this dynamic.  Over the years we have been together I have quietly reminded him that sometimes I like to do things if I can, even if it would be easier or quicker for him to do it - to maintain some independence.

It is difficult to see sometimes whether he would like everything his way, or whether he is so stressed about me not feeling well - that he’s trying to solve the problem by cutting me out of the equation! Either way I am going to keep doing things for myself and explaining why. Hopefully he’ll accept that I do things for myself differently? 

Thank you again.  I completely agree with you about the right and wrong. I think it helps my partner to have things either black or white, for one person in a discussion to be ‘correct’.  Or at least that is the impression that I get. I do try and remind him we are both on the same side, and if one of us is unhappy neither of us are winning. And I think my partner would hold his hands up and agree with you that I am used as a release valve sometimes, as I place myself in a position for that to be possible. I have a background in counselling and sometimes I feel like I am required to be too impartial, and have tried to put my feelings aside to address other issues my partner has experienced with friends and family members in the past. This is something that we have both spoken about previously in the relationship, and explore as an ongoing theme! Relationships are complicated whoever they are between - at times my partner and I just speak a different language so it is about preserving the relationship and respecting one another, whatever the differences. You’re right. Thanks again for your time and energies xx

Nick said:

He will argue for example that I was telling him he isn’t respectful, when I say I don’t feel he’s being respectful of my feelings in the moment

This is exactly it. It links to what Plastic and Cloud7 said.

'Not being 'respectful of my feelings' is hugely triggering, it is loaded with layers of misunderstanding, assumptions, wrapped into an accusation, so one feels out of control in an emotional explosion, the need to defend and reject all those assumptions (as Cloud7 started to explain), while in fact what you are saying is 'please listen to my feelings', which is different.

To actually 'listen' and 'hear' each-other, you need to 'silence' all this anxiety and guilt and blame and frustration. Otherwise your are simply not in a state to hear each-other due to the double empathy problem.

When people are triggered, are in a state of high emotional arousal, our intelligent human brain is off line, the part of the brain in charge is the primitive reptilian brain, it doesn't have any capacity for nuance, dialogue and compromise. It just wants to fight, freeze of flight.  And those are the reactions  that come out, as Cloud7 describes - anger, muteness and withdrawal. The fight response comes in form of arguing and anger.

So to really start communicating, both partners need to be in a calm enough mode when the intelligent human brain can be in control. There are Psychotherapists that are trained in helping people to regulate each-others emotions and arousal. I found that type of therapy really helpful for my ASC problems. 

As mentioned above, you might like to understand the Double empathy problem and how understanding it might help to improve communication.

https://network.autism.org.uk/knowledge/insight-opinion/double-empathy-problem

I think the first step in bridging the double empathy gap is to regulate the emotional state.  

Plastic pointed out how seemingly small things could be very important triggers or signals of love and safety, how they can be calming and positive.

Plastic said:

You both need to find a way to communicate with each other and find agreement about all the little stuff to de-fuse it all so you can get on with the important stuff.

Agreement about the little stuff means you will both feel valued as you both understand WHY you each do the things you do.

Once you are in state to list to each-other, you need to start learning each-other's language. What certain gestures, behaviours and responses actually mean and how to read  and send signals that the other partner can register and understand. With my therapist, we literally acted situations that triggered me at home and found the 'translations' of what they meant and how to better handle such situations.

Then you might start developing some routines, some habits of signalling things that important to the partner in the language they can read, the way to be 'nice' as Cloud7 says. I mean this for both partners, because you are both misreading each-other. 

Tinyexplorer said:

Cloudy, there is no need to become combative. You are surprisingly defensive about hate groups.

With a starting statement that tries to paint me with an imaginary brush as some kind of hate figure as a strawman, I won't bother engaging with you as not to cause offense, feigned or otherwise.

Tinyexplorer said:

I am surprised that you are trying to assign intentions to me.

But it's perfectly fine for you to do so apparently.

No problem at all Nick. It's obvious you care a lot about him.

Nick said:

It is as though saying sorry, and addressing some behaviours is viewed as a weakness sometimes. A discussion is frequently steered towards who was ‘right’ and who was ‘wrong’. And it’s me that’s making things complicated by not just being out right.

In the situation you are in it should be a two way conversation when it comes to discussing behaviours, you can interchange "right" with "the outcome that suits" and "wrong" with "the outcome that doesn't suit" sometimes, right and wrong can be so subjective. Just make sure you don't confuse the two. It helps both people. You can't let someone be constantly "in the right", because inevitably they will think that they are, and that can create a dynamic where you will just get crushed. It's also not good for the other person, they become untouchable in their own mind. Autistic people mostly like to be told honestly what the situation is. I was in my longest relationship for 10 years, with an NT partner, it lasted so long because she told me honestly what she felt needed to be said, and vice versa. Sometimes she'd tell me I was being a ***, and sometimes I needed to be told that!

Nick said:

Truth be told, I go through periods of exhaustion - and I’m there at the moment. Just some responsibility for the exchange between us would give me a little weight off. I feel our relationship has the capacity to be an understanding place. But the constant nit picking is wearing me.

From reading some of the stuff you've written it seems to me, for what that's worth, that when you try ro compromise, you may be being used as a release valve for his negative emotions that may not be anything to do with the problem you are addressing. That isn't fair, and shouldn't be stood for. When the sphere of what the problem is moves outside of that discussion, and on to other issues he might have with you, recognise it.

I hope you can preserve your relationship, but don't let it be at each others detriment.

All the best.

Cloudy Mountains said:

I'm not going to defend something that sounds rather abusive, just because the person is ASC. If it was happening to you would you cling to some form of fabricated identitarian excuse, or call it out for what it looks like?

Cloudy, there is no need to become combative. You are surprisingly defensive about hate groups.

None of us are required to defend anything, nor are we required or indeed entitled to accuse people of abuse while in fact we have no idea neither of the facts, nor of the feelings of the two people involved. This is an anonymous forum on which people are presenting selective information that is one sided and subjective.

I  think when people seek advice to improve the relationship, to be helpful in is appropriate to explore and understand the context and perspectives a bit.

Everybody when talking have their own context. You too. Your sudden unwarranted bringing up of 'abuse' from the AS partner reflects your context, as does your combative defensiveness about what I said. I am not sure it is possible and meaningful to engage without seeking to understand the context of another person.

I am not judging anyone, neither am I defending, just trying to understand. For the moment the discussion is about symptoms, but the real underlying issues are not clear even to OP. 

In reality only the two people involved really know, but may not fully realise the psychological significance of what really goes on. This is why people are seeking advice from counseling or indeed at a forum. People need help untangling things with which they are too close to see. Cloud7 and Plastic just touched on them.

My 'if' statements are indeed just 'if' statements, they are not pointing or exonerating blame and I am surprised that you are trying to assign intentions to me. OP stated they had counselling that was unhelpful because of particular therapist.

There are therapists around that I saw described as 'anti men' and as 'anti ASC'. Some are trained and informed by people who promote a discriminatory model of the relationship, which victimises the autistic partner for being 'abusive' just by the fact of them being autistic, which means just by the fact of their existence. This approach doesn't have the theoretical and the ethical basis to be helpful to anyone. It is completely toxic.

Clearly, nobody should stay in an abusive relationship, or even in a relationship they no longer want to be in for whatever reasons. However, it takes two to tango, both partners are equally responsible for making their communication and relationship work for each-other. OP stated the desire to make it work with her chosen person. As Plastic said they need to work together to remove the barriers.

Autism is not a fabricated excuse, but a neurological reality. It looks like the two partners are struggling with some form of the double empathy problem, they need some help to bridge that gap and establish some good habits and routines, like Plastic suggested,  in reading each-other's signals correctly, acknowledging those signals in the correct way (they way that works), reinforcing the signals of love, safety and connectedness and removing the 'noise' that gets in a way of such connection.