Negative Feedback Loop

I 'm going through a negative feedback loop a lot fo the time - as I messed up during a TUPE - where we were given the choice to opt out - -  I did - tried for internal redeploy - failed - and then a full not partial outsource was declared - but I didn;t say yes in time.  Now too lat e- so I cam eout after 21 years... and struggling.. 

Still beating myself up about it - and trying not to..

Was a massive restructure...

I think what MattBucks says has more than a grain of truth in it. However, I think that motivation, or self discipline, can be difficult if you have persuaded yourself that something is a problem when rationally it isn't. Motivational texts will say get a grip of yourself and train yourself to develop better habits. I have never had much time for this and I think that may because these texts fail to persuade me or educate me and I am deeply sceptical of training if I can't see the logical endpoint or can't see why it should work. I wonder if this way of thinking is an ASD trait (but not exclusive to ASD people) I think that people with ASD need to be educated before they can be trained, we need to be persuaded that the choices we make will be better is we make educated choices rather than just responding in a trained, parrot-fashion manner.

Thanks Trog. That almost perfectly describes me.

I've got a negative interpretation of someones behaviour. To keep it short, we were getting on great, then they didn't reply to a message and I felt, I guess, in limbo after a friend said they'd let me know some dates to meet up, didn't. Their story has logical holes in it - unless this forum has a PM function, Im not going to tell you. Maybe I'll PM you over at WrongPlanet.

Any theories why this catastrophising negative looking behaviour would be directed and intensified against one person, almost obsessively? Why would one person cause so much angst and anxiety?

Is it because of weird attachment styles?

In my experience, I do think it stems from having a default negative interpretation of events that we can't comprehend.  For those of us with poorer social comprehension, there's too much which goes unexplained when we interact with people - so our minds are desperate to plug the gaps in our knowledge, which for most people are filled by the social cues that an autistic person might miss.  I feel like it's a force that drives me to have absolute certainty in all things, even when rationally I know that isn't possible.

The changing interpretations come about because of this ambiguity, I think.  There are often many, many different ways to explain the same situation, so my mind tries to consider every single interpretation in infinite detail - hoping that the correct interpretation will jump out at me when I stumble accross it.  Just when I think I have found the right interpretation, doubt strikes again, and yet another scenario presents itself for consideration.

What causes it? Is there anything can cure it? How do you recognise it forming and stopping people from being caught in the crossfire by your, or my, selfish, petulant outburst? Im really upset because I've been getting on really well with this person. Then all of a sudden, everything becomes to much, I interpret that this person is backing away, Im concerned about my behaviour, Im analysing my own behaviour and sending out what signals I have no idea, must be something against my own self worth, and the feelings fester and grow and then I turn it on them and they become public enemy number one when they've done nothing different.

But the way I interpret what is going on changes. I don't get it. I don't understand.

Im actually pretty upset by this. I don't know what causes it, how to control it, and how to protect others around me.

One thing that I find helps me when I get stuck in loop is to express what I'm feeling some other way - for example writing it down, making a picture of it etc.

I find that this helps for a couple of reasons.  Firstly, the process of writing seems to slow down my thought processes - my mind can't leap so quickly from one interpretation of events to another.  Secondly, once I have my feelings down in writing, it gives me a sense that somehow I have "completed" my rumination - although what I have written might be very negative, it is at least concrete and in no further need of revision.

That's the problem - I can't let go.

I know that the thoughts are wrong, I know the responses are wrong, I try to think of other ways to explain it, but it's like I get into a position where, not everything, but one thing sets me off. I want to let it go, but my mind won't let me!

It's like "Automatic Negative Thinking" I think. I have very little control over it.

NAS11521 said:

Just keep in mind that they are the one in the wrong - not you.  If they don't want to meet up  (or can't for some reason) they should tell you.

They should tell you but in the real world perhaps they can't bring themselves to tell you? People are fallible, unreliable, shy of telling the truth sometimes because it is difficult.

What would happen if you let it go? Without knowing the circumstances it is difficult to know what it might be reasonable to expect.

Thanks. Things like this have happened in the past - not with the same person. But everytime, the answer has been, there's nothing wrong, everythings OK, I haven't done anything wrong, they haven't done anything.

I am overly sensitive, I am overthinking things, but Im caught in a scenario where Im guessing what's happening. I make issues bigger than they are - this revolves around a lack of a text message, coupled with my own obsessive impatience.

The issues appear to be in my head only.

Maybe I should have waited a bit longer instead of despairing so soon. I've ended up sending a message asking if we're still meeting. I'll await an answer.

But still the questions flow - have I don't something wrong, do they like me, are they being honest? Why am I getting mixed messages? Why can't I be more secure?

Im actually getting pretty bad here, extremely focussed, agitated, frustrated, obsessive. The thoughts are getting more pervasive. 

I don't know what to exepct, how to respond, what to say, when to say it, what to do, how to do it, how to handle it.

I think part of me feels abandoned and like I can't trust the other person anymore. Im trying desperately to look for any shread of positivity to explain why someone can't text back.

Amazing. Just one, one tiny little thing in the grand scheme of things, can have me discounting all the positive and focusing on the negative. Just one little contradictory thing that cannot be explained has me catastrophising about someones genuineness.

Can someone please tell me how I can get out of the loop? 

Im stuck in the middle not knowing what to do, not knowing what way to read it. It's about the most simplest thing like someone not texting back, not coming back with a date and time to meet.

On one hand there is the difference between what is being said and what the actions are. So on one hand, I hear words of love, understanding, compassion and trust. But the action makes it seem like "I don't want to know".

I don't know how to handle it. Back off? Ask about the meeting? Go somewhere in the middle and ask if everythings OK?

I have no idea what to do.

If I could just gain some understanding or stop myself from continually going through this AND think positive, that would be a start. 

Oh Im confused. I don't know what to expect.

I think you're taking the right approach.  It can be difficult not to feel embarrassed by admitting to someone that my social comprehension isn't very good, but in the long run, I think it's much better to be pro-active as soon as you sense that communication is breaking down.

It's a case of trying to find a way to ask for the reassurrance that I need, before the negative cycle has a chance to get started.  I'll just apologise for having a bit of a thick skull, and ask for the smallest point of clarification that will set my mind to rest.

For example, I'm much more confortable now with pointing out if a conversation is going too quickly for me to follow.  At the end of the day, if I'm missing the context of a situation, it's not only me that suffers - the person on the other side of the converation is more likely to end up disappointed too.  So I let them know that I am slowing my responses on purpose, so that everyone benefits from a more productive discussion.

If asked to justify myself, I'll put it down to an unspecified "medical condition", or the effects of medication.  Most people are a bit squeamish about discussing health problems, particularly those of a stranger, so I have only very rarely been challenged to be more specific.

NAS18906 said:

Since we tend to avoid sharing our feelings and thoughts with others, we also tend to stew and fester.

You're describing me too.

I must admit the Attwood video didn't make much sense. The instant emotional response does make sense. But I've never been in a position where I've said I want to kill myself and then Im alright half an hour later. No, those sort of depressive feelings have last a long time. I've wanted to do it from time to time, I've had thoughts where I want to drive my car at a tree. But I don't do it.

And please rest assured, Im happy now. Im positive now.

I decided the thing I was going to do, was that I need to share my emotions, or at least my issues. If people don't know what Im going through, then I've got no chance at being supported and more chance of annoying people. What I've been doing so far hasn't worked so might as well try something different.

Trogluddite said:

The things that I still can't explain, I'll blame on the person I'm focusing on if I already feel negative about that person, otherwise I'll blame myself.  This is even when nobody has actually accused anyone of having done anything wrong!

And the relief when someone sets it right by reassuring me what really probably happened, it's such a weight lifted off me.  I'll be a bit exhausted for a little while, but my mood can bounce back very quickly.

This interview with Tony Attwood speaks about the catastrophising trait...

www.youtube.com/watch

Close to what you were thinking of?

Just reading that, I could actually cry at that point. Exactly me. That's me. The things I can't explain, like you, I blame someone else, or blame me. No one is upset with me. No one has done anything for me to be upset about. But Im upset about it. 

I've spent ten years questionning my sexuality when I was younger, constantly ruminating over the question, Am I Gay. Im not. I tried. Im definitely not. But it still doesn't stop my mind from having these thought. They appear to be fairly mild compared to actual obsessiveness. But none-the-less, my mind needs something to focus on and obsess about.

After Christmas, it was "Do I have ASD". In February, I had a new obsession.

My mind needs to find answers to problems. I don't know how common that is. When I can't get those answers, the frustration, the confusion, is always there.

Like you, someone sets me straight, as it was, this person set me straight and spent time explaining what was going on and I calmed down instantly. I went from "This is the worst person in the world" back to "This is the best person in the world" in a matter" or seconds.

I never, ever realised I was doing this before. But I am. I can see what's going on now, and it all seems so much clearer. I can now see the patterns occurring, see what's going on. I even apologised to someone I did that to last year, and the year before that, and the year before that.

It's funny. But tragic too. 

It just all feels like it's starting to make sense. 

Hi again,

I hadn't picked up that your problem was so focused on an individual or a single thing. Like Trogluddite, it makes more sense as you read more of your responses. The Attwood video is relevant in talking about catastrophising but it also has a warning about not assuming that it will all blow over. I have done exactly what you say in condemning an individual (usually a manager!) as being stupid or bad. I now recognise that part of this is in our inability to read people - we struggle to work out what intentions people have and we jump to conclusions and decide to place them on the wicked pile. The dichotomous thought processes or black vs white thinking is also a trait that we have. Since we tend to avoid sharing our feelings and thoughts with others, we also tend to stew and fester.

I also think there is a danger that you identify one person as bad and then another and another and before too long you have the whole world against you and you would be prone to talk yourself into a really depressive state.

Hi undiagnosed,

Reading back through the last few posts, I've got a much clearer idea of what you're talking about now - and I think you're right, the catastrophising and irresistible need to examine the same event or person for ever smaller flaws, is a separate thing from depression.

I've been talking to a couple of people recently on the 'WrongPlanet' forum about just this kind of behaviour.  

The way I experience something similar, is this...

I end up pacing in circles, lots of muttering and gesticulating - very animated, very anxious.  Because I've missed some of the social cues, I'm replaying an event over and over again, hoping to fill in the blanks.

But without insight into the other person's state of mind, most of the blanks can never be known for sure.  So, it's like my mind tries to "number crunch" through every single possible permutation of things that might have happened - hoping that the correct interpretation events of will just jump out at me when I find it (which of course, it never does).

The things that I still can't explain, I'll blame on the person I'm focusing on if I already feel negative about that person, otherwise I'll blame myself.  This is even when nobody has actually accused anyone of having done anything wrong!

And the relief when someone sets it right by reassuring me what really probably happened, it's such a weight lifted off me.  I'll be a bit exhausted for a little while, but my mood can bounce back very quickly.

This interview with Tony Attwood speaks about the catastrophising trait...

www.youtube.com/watch

Close to what you were thinking of?

I don't think that way about depression at all. Im just pointing out that I don't think it's depression because it would be more pervasive than just focussed on one area. So, I've been enjoying work, enjoying my food, enjoying my music, having a good relationship with other people, it's just one person Im focussing on. Perhaps obsessively.

Trust me on this, it's really not depression.

I think you are seeing depression as something to be afraid of and to be avoided. Depression to me is just a mental state that needs to be recognised and climbed out of. You might need to be aware that you are prone to thinking negatively and to try and spot when you are doing it. I have been depressed over the last couple of years but was never suicidal or wanted to self harm or anything like that. However, I was lethargic and somewhat zombie like and everything seemed to be against me. I got into frequent arguments with shop assistants, car drivers etc etc. I had regular attacks of red-mist. Everything was hopeless. I now recognise that my mood goes up and down, I have good days and bad days and I am much more aware of the mental state I am in.I also recognise that autism contributes by making me more likely to misunderstand peoples intentions and it also leads to dichotomous thinking which also can lead to depressive thoughts.

It sounds as though you are aware of a mental feeling that doesn't feel right, you have a friend who talked you out of it, you may well not need treatment so it may well not be "clinical" depression but I'm not sure if there is another term that could distinguish it from the vague and woolly term "depression" that covers a wide spectrum of mental states.

Have a look at www.nhs.uk/.../about-anger.aspx it talks about the links between depression, anxiety and anger. Does any of that seem to apply to you?

Dealing with depression isn't simple, I don't think it is trivial but I think it is good to recognise your mental state, to understand how it fluctuates, to look for triggers and above all to talk to other people to work through your problems and to help you understand that this is not unusual and by no means necessarily clinically significant.

If by talking therapy, you mean "CBT" or something similar, then that is indeed used for depression. But it is used for a lot more things than depression. Ergo, someone having CBT and feeling better from talking, isn't automatically suffering from depression.

The reason I don't think it is depression, is because I've been depressed before. I guess depression can have many forms, but, Im not suicidal, Im not self harming, Im not drinking, Im not taking drugs, I don't feel bad about myself. I don't have any of those negative things. Yeah, sure, my self esteem is shot, my self ego is shot... But I have hope. 

That's why to me this isn't depression. It's anger, it's frustration, it's annoyance, it's confusion, it's bewilderment. It's recognising that it's caused because I have no clue how to interpret what someone is doing or saying.

I realise I haven't given the whole back story. Let me explain. Someone calls me a friend, says we should go out for a drink. But they don't add me on Facebook, and we don't go out for that drink. Im fine. Up to a point. Then something tips me over the edge, a delay in replying to a text message, and I start recalling the negative.

I cannot correlate what they're saying with what they're doing. They seem at odds with themselves. They say they're my friend, but they don't add me on Facebook, and we never went out for that drink. I minimise the positive and maximise the negative. I turn them into an ogre in my brain. I have no understanding, no explanation, no way to interpret what's going on.

That's what I mean by negative feedback loop. Someone does something which I don't understand. I take it as negative. Then I feedback every other negative thing back in to the mix. They haven't done anything wrong, they haven't done anything diferent. What was OK yesterday, is now wrong, and it gets worse day by day the more Im in that mindset. I can't function around that person. They came up to talk to me the other day, they were trying to talk to me, and I was just on another planet. I was spaced out, mumbling, one word answers, I couldn't understand what they were asking me. I wanted to be anywhere but there.

But thank God, they persisted, they talked to me, they explained what was going. They gave me reassurance. In the space of five minutes, the red mist went away because the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle fit. There's nothing to obsess about anymore.

The amount of times I've been confused by things like this and I've been all over the forums trying to make sense of what's going on, it borders on the obsessive. It's not what they're doing that bothers me, but the fact I cannot make sense of it. What's obvious to me, is no normal person, thinks this deeply about situations like that.

For the first time, instead of saying it's depression, instead of blaming myself or blaming someone else, I can say - you know what, I haven't a clue what's going on, and I have no shame in telling you, because I want you to help me understand and I want to build a bridge with you. I don't have all the skills, but someone helping me could really be beneficial.

I just wish I knew what I was dealing with, and I wish people would stop saying "everyones like that, you just need to do XYZ". No. XYZ doesn't work for me. 

Undiagnosed4321 said:

Im almost positive it's not depression.

Not quite sure why you are so positive about that? Please don't take this as provocative, I'm puzzled but don't want to annoy you. I'm not a doctor either!

Your problems are relieved when someone talks you through it. That is the recommended "treatment" for someone with depression. You need to be challenged out of the mental stew that you have fallen into. Talking to someone else who can present a more balanced view of the world is the way to "change your mind".

Depression is often not a chemical thing but it can be caused by external events which we (people with ASC) can be too critical of. I think that the term is dichotomous or black and white thinking and this is a recognised precursor to depressive tendencies.