The British stiff upper lip

Interesting. I could not find a single answer that fitted me. I am a nothing!

Have you heard of this website made by a boy with a diagnosis of asd, who made a test for 'neurotypical'. It reminds me of what you're talking about! Who sets the rules?

isnt.autistics.org/ntscreening.html

When I express a reaction, usually triggered by Gran's demands, she acts as if she's been stabbed. I can never get a true conversation with her because she sets the agenda EVERY TIME.

Though a Family tree of our Family showed that the patriarchs got their way all the time. So perhas Gran believes Granddad, who will be 15 Years dead this coming July, is still head honcho at home. Bless her, she knows no other way.

I belong to a walking group. We talk as we walk. Therefore, we do not look at each other much. It is easy to go and talk to someone else, if either party wants to. So there is no need for eye contact and we need not worry too much about body language. I suppose it is more like a phone conversation, in that respect.

I also enjoy listening to spoken radio programs. I wonder if this is a better communication medium for those on the spectrum, because everything is spelt out verbally, no faces to read or body language. We only have to think about tone of voice.

I wonder sometimes if no facial expression or the dead pan look is an evolved response to being cricised for not having the appropriate facial expresson - neutral is safer.

I've said recently on another posting it is not just about reading other people's facial expressions correctly it is about generating the appropriate facial expressions to give the right context to what you are trying to say with words, that other people most notice.

It also relates to why neurotypicals need to use emoticons/smilies to substitute a contextual facial expression when texting.

What may be happening is that your facial expression contradicts what you are trying to convey with speech, or looks like you are being sarcastic or ambiguous.

Other factors can also make us seem rude - not being the right distance from another person, or pitching our voices too loud (as if it would be in a textual context using block capitals), or not looking at the person you are talking to, which is perceived as being rude. Or not using the phrasing and additional courtesies someone in seniority to you, or authority over you expects.

NTs expect to see certain physical manifestations backing up what you are saying. When this doesn't happen they are at least confused, and sometimes annoyed, and read your intentions as insincere, cryptic or rude.

Unfortunately while people on the spectrum having difficulty reading other people's facial expression is explained, seldom does anyone explain that not being able to generate the right facial expressions is the other half of the problem.

Hi Truecolours, as an undiagnosed person, I have blundered through life without the benefit of knowledge or advice. My parents wern't sociable, and my social life was completely separate from my family life, so no one has ever advised me. I have had to work these things out from experience.

Yes it is a good way of learning, but it is hard to learn some things, when they are the things you don't see. I did not know that there was body language to miss. I would love to sit with a group of people who could say, if I do this, then this is what it means. If I don't know something is there, then I cannot learn about it.

I am at least learning here that certain behaviours are problematic.

It would be accutely embarrassing to have someone make excuses for me, but education on both sides, could allieviate a lot of pain. I am in my 60s. Maybe, my life could have been happier.

Hi Longman, yet again, I find answers here to life long issues, that I have only half got to grips with.

I often know when I am getting it wrong by the sudden silence of the person I am with, but they rarely actually tell me and usually, I don't realise what I have got wrong until much later, if ever. I am probably guilty of having the wrong facial expressions when people are speaking and I know that I tend to smile if I think they are talking twaddle. I cannot do that neutral face, mine gives me away, I think.

My worst problem is that I forget other people have feelings, because I don't think that they feel things as much I do, so I tend to rant on too long about subjects that annoy/upset me and can upset an entire group of people in minutes. On the other hand, if I have not experienced something, I don't see it's potential to upset the other person and listen with a more accademic curiosity rather than empathy.

Your list of things we get wrong has enlightened me, I know I do many of those.

Re the personal space issue, I find too many nts come too close to me and I step back because it causes me great discomfort. This has brought on the comment "do I have bad breath or something?" I cannot get that close to people.

The problem of expressing emotions, I find awful. If I am deeply upset about something (thankfully rare), it spills out in an uncontrolled manner. Otherwise, I keep things to myself. Neither is a good way of dealing with things.

If I am with someone who is very upset, I get upset too. I cannot bear to see someone that unhappy. My brother died 20 years ago (we were not a close family), and his wife was of asian origin. She openly expressed her grief at the funeral and I was overwhelmed more by her pain than the loss of my brother.

Hence, if someone has had an experience, such as the loss of a close relative, and can calmly chat to family and friends throughout the funeral, I assume that they just don't feel things as much as I do. I began to think like this quite early in life. Many people just seem to be less sensitive to emotional and physical pain than me.

Tony Attwood's the Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome has a section on "being considered disrespectful and rude" in his chapter on theory of mind, p116-117.

Apart from not reading cues, he includes enthusiasm for special subject and perception that what others usually want to talk about is boring.

Also that impaired theory of mind deprives the child (Attwood never seems to talk about adults) of boundaries to a question - eg what did you do today? - where do you start? an itemised list from getting up to going to bed? or just a brief resume?  He gives the example of someone asked what they'd like to drink, asking what choices there were, which seems logical for someone on the spectrum, but NTs just venture what they want.

He also makes a point, p90 that parents or carers so often make excuses for people on the spectrum getting social rules wrong, that that further takes away from the individual's own learning experience of cues.

Should parents help their children find ways of clarifying their own difficulty in social situations - eg saying "please let me know if I go on too long about something".... rather than telling the other person aside - my son/daughter has autism, please be forgiving?

Show of emotion is difficult for people on the spectrum, even when witnessed in others.

The rudeness issues arise from lack of proper eye contact, and lack of non-verbal input or reception. People on the spectrum don't pick up social cues (or give the right social signals). I suspect British "stiff upper lip" doesn't help matters but I think the rudeness issue in respect of people on the spectrum might be just as significant without it.

We can appear rude for a number of reasons:

Showing mirth or amusement or a smile when the topic has changed to serious, or vice versa, which could be read as tactless or mocking.

Butting in, speaking over, or not giving someone else time to have their say.

Appearing not to be listening, or listening in an exaggerated way, appearing to be tired or bored (as the conversation stresses you out). Some people on the spectrum point their ear at a speaker rather than their eyes, in an attempt to follow the subject

Having to ask things to be repeated or explained more than is normal, appearing to misunderstand whereby it irritates the NT.

Pitch - having the wrong softness or loudness for the situation

Hierarchical issues - deference. Some people need to be addressed differently in terms of how important they are or think they are, and expect a different tone, certain words used/not used etc.

Cliques/in-crowds. Where you are expected to pick up the informal codes for the group you are in.

Personal space - being too close, or putting your hands too near someone. Personal space varies with the subject matter, and people on the spectrum don't "get" this.

Stimming - this isn't just hand flapping, but can involve playing with your hair, picking your nose while talking (I know an aspie who does just this, and it is really quite distracting, seems to be his stim), playing with a pen or some object that appears to suggest you are not really listening. NTs seem to get ever so cross with this.