Touching, hugging , kissing

Uk is getting too continental, we used to have British reserve to protect us.

I have done some research and find that apart from hand shake or hi five, there aern't any acceptable alternatives. So I will go for hand shake, and if it is a previous hugger/kisser, I will just have to add that I am not a very tactile person. (As someone suggested a while back)

I decided that to just say I am not tactile may offend, so a hand shake will show that I am compromising and do wish to great (meeting/departing) and am happy to have met them. Aged aunts, I may just put up with hug.

I have been too passive about it, I am going to have to be a bit more assertive. I have to adopt a new style of behaviour and plan what I will do, so that I am not caught unprepared. The first time will be difficult. I will have to take a deep breath and try it. But hopefully, the situation will get easier with practice and in the long run, I may be happier about it.

Thanks to all those who have helped me think it through and given advice.

Marjorie195 said:

This debate has moved me from thinking URRRGHHH, to actually analysing the problem with a view to dealing with it. I may not have fully resolved the issue yet, but there is hope now that I will.

That sounds like a big step forward. As I understand it, the process on this thread followed CBT steps of making you think and challenging your old assumptions and getting to the point where you can see that you can deal with the world in potentially different and less extreme ways. This can potentially mean less conflict with the world and a bit more contentment and less extreme reactions to things. I couldn't have predicted the twists and turns but I was aware that I was challenging some of your thinking. :-)

I'm beginning to see this as 3 issues.

1. I have accepted hugs and kisses in the past because it was what other people did, who I saw as more acceptable than myself. I was trying to fit in. I did not know that I was inately different from them and could/should have seen my difference as acceptable to me and something they should accept. I have backed into corner, that I now want to escape from.

2. What do I do about new people I meet? Well, Electra has a point. I could just back off and say I don't do hugs, with a big smile. I should try it. They may eventually learn not to hug all and sundry and see that people are all different.

3. If I tollerate hugs/kisses from some and repell others, then some people may take it personnaly. This would affect how I get on with them.

I will still do some research and try and come up with an alternative, that can be substituted as an acceptable form of greeting.

This debate has moved me from thinking URRRGHHH, to actually analysing the problem with a view to dealing with it. I may not have fully resolved the issue yet, but there is hope now that I will.

outraged said:

Im aware that by now Im defending a fairly tenuous position, and this could probably have been avoided by thinking for more than the apporox 30s I did earlier in the thread, but we're here now and the question is not uninteresting.

The problems thrown up by our lives are indeed interesting and if it makes us think harder about the choices we make and our reactions to everyday situations then these debates can help us figure out how to cope better with our differences. :-)

I put on a big smile and say 'I don't do hugging'.The smile means they can't take offence and they are usually too confused to ask for any explanation.

Marjorie195 said:

If rape scores 10, then assault is 7 and unwanted physical contact 2 or 3.

So, would a handshake score a 1 - it is touching but tolerable? Isn't it pragmatic to tolerate something that is closer to a handshake than it is to rape? This makes more sense to me than classifying it with the extreme and criminal assaults at the other end of this scale.

Wouldn't you then be exhibiting an old fashioned, grin and bear it, stiff upper lip attitude in response to the unwanted intrusion into your personal space.

The only way I have found so far is to back off claiming infectious illness. But I don't want people to think I'm permanently ill. I need a stick on cold sore that I can whip out of a pocket, when I see likely offenders coming.

On a more serious note, perhaps I should research styles of greeting on the internet and see if I can come up with an acceptable alternative. I havn't tried that.

Thanks for the sympathy from all those who replied. If I come up with a solution, I will share it.

In an era with such ready access to imformation, ignorance can only be willful. I did some wikireading and found that the law defines harm caused by ignorance to be "reckless" and as such punishable. In the instance of hugging without consent this would be reckless assault. Your preference for gentle education demonstrates your inherant good nature. 

You state that women do not generally greet with a handshake, is there some other acceptble greeting gesture that you could employ to avoid the hug/kiss thing?

Allow me to express my sympathies...and the hope that the intervention was conducted with extreme prejudice...

Id still prefer a more concrete line than the somewhat subjective "intent" but its only of intellectual interest to myself...I hope you find a method that works for you.

Marjorie,

Sorry to read this bit of history and I hope you are able to put it behind you.

Has the discussion helped to put things in perspective?

Im aware that by now Im defending a fairly tenuous position, and this could probably have been avoided by thinking for more than the apporox 30s I did earlier in the thread, but we're here now and the question is not uninteresting.

I guess my point is that on a crowded street, consent to accidental knocks and bumps are consented by the implication of ones presence...but what we were debating was the very different matter of a willful intrusion of anothers space...

If we assume the hug/kiss greeting is aceptable in the clear absense of consent we then have a situation where poeple heve hands/mouths on the person of another and I see no logical place to draw the line unless it is at that initial moment of contact.

I still think M has a right to insist people refrain from touching her...if her hypersensitivity was burn related it would be a much more obvious position.

We should however agree to disagree as neither position is entirely without merit, the debate is largely philosophical, and M asks for practical advice. To that end, I reiterate the handshake idea I expressed further up the thread.

Given the context of this forum there is no way I would report this as offensive. You are quite clear that rape is a heinous offence.

I think, however, that you fallen into a trap of dichotomous thinking and unwarranted extrapolation from one clear position to another situation where your conclusion is out of proportion or 'unreasonable' in our society. I think a lot of people (NT and ASD) would baulk at the jump that you have made from the unambiguously, criminally wrong situation involving contact, without consent, to another situation. It is not simply unconsented physical contact in the case of rape. It is unconsented sexual violation that is an extreme example of unconsented physical contact. At the other end of the scale of unconsented physical contact is the accidental bumping of shoulders on a train or bus. Should that be treated as assault? That is what your logic suggests to me.

Im not saying rape is anything but heinously unaceptable...and Id gladly take up the challenge but a, how to discuss w sensitivity and b, how to prove whoever was agreeing was actually a victim not some person unaffected by this monstrous crime that Ive strongarmed into agreeing w me.

But heres how Id solicit such agreement:

[to rape victim] "Do you believe it to be acceptable to subject another person to intrusive and objectionable forms of physical expression of affection in the absence of consent?"

I believe there are only two possible responses: "I don't understand the question" or a very emphatic "NO!!"

Pls feel free to flag me for offensive content...but I stand by the position, finding no fault with the arguments internal logic after reexamination. 

Your challenge, outraged, is to go and find a rape victim who agrees with you. Until such point I think I will remain sceptically unconvinced.

The quantitative difference is enough to make a hug unpleasant, but bearable, whilst rape is completely unacceptable.

I am stating it categorically. Unwanted physical interaction is the matter being examined here. The differences are purely quantitive. I believe a rape victim can agree with my position.

Majorie uses the phrases:

" when people hug and kiss me without consent"

"revulsion"

This indicates to me that she feels violated in such situations. Correct me if I'm mistaken M 

No.

Are you suggesting that there is some kind of equivalence between a socially acceptable hug and a serious criminal act like rape. Wouldn't a rape victim take a very dim view of any suggestion that rape is any way equivalent to a hug.

Should she also submit to rapists?

Or, alternatively, you learn to not let it bother you. I have an aged aunt, who is very far down the spectrum, who is so oblivious to our fairly obvious disdain for her hugs and kisses that we just put up with it. It is over quite quickly, it simply isn't like having a hypodermic shoved in your arm or the dentist drilling a tooth. There is no point in making anything of this, just shut your eyes and think of England and it will be over before you know whats happened.

Im not sure politeness is required or appropriate here. It is those of us on the spectrum that are supposed to have social perception impairment...the NT should be able to tell that such contact is unwanted...I see it all the time in public, party a approaches arms opened to hug, notices that party b does not want to hug so changes the gesture to another greeting, often a slap on the upperarm...this showing that the NT is aware that hugging is not always desired and is capable of discerning when this is the case.

Whereas they continue to attempt to hug you despite noting your discomfort, this is assault (probably aggravated possibly borderline indecent)...and you would be within your rights under law to defend your person.

I am not a lawyer...the above is my opinion not legal advice

But if you are uncomfortable with pushing/striking/throwing, you might try proactively offering a handshake as they approach...proper response to this oveture seeming to be non-optional and deeply conditioned into the NT... 

Further, notice how aggressive/abusive the NT becomes when someone with LFA makes a grab at them...often threatening legal action...or battery