aspergers and gender dysmorphia

Hi Fairytopia,

Well that post could have been from me a few years ago. You are so right as to how isolating it can be. Our concerns do not seem to be taken into consideration, which is so very difficult. My child, has not had a diagnosis of Asperger's but after being in denial for a long time, is now considering being assessed (my husband has been assessed as having Asperger's). However I believe that if a diagnosis had been explored earlier, it may have been a different story. My child still has very many unresolved issues and I feel is actually in a worse place mentally than before this process began. This may or may not have anythbing to do with being transgender but I believe we should be able to have discussions about this. Unfortunatley, it's a no-go subject as far as my child is concerned and although there is still much love between us, I'm afraid our relationship is quite fractured. 

I have replied to another post wondering if there is any way we can contact each other directly, which I will look into. I have also suggested that we need our own support group, as there doesn't seem to be anything out there for families who have genuine questions or concerns. 

You are not a bigot or tansphobic for having questions or doubts. It is natural for you to have concerns for your child and actually by questioning we are trying to get the answers that will help us move forward and support our children, whatever they ulitmately decide.

Hi Dizzy Dee

So sorry, but I've only just seen your reply. I would really like to get in touch with you directly somehow. I will have a word with my husband (who's an IT bloke) to see if there is a way without posting all our details on the site. I am now also thinking that it's time there was a support group specifically for families who have concerns. By that I don't mean people who are just completely against transgender but for people who worry that their children  (and themselves) need more help and support. Anyway I'll get back to you when I've spoken to my husband but feel free to get in touch any time.

Hi, I'm new to this community but I too have a daughter ( 18) who wishes to transition to male and who has changed her name by deed poll. She has been identifying as male since 16 years old. As you will guess straightaway from my non use of male pronouns, I do not feel that transition is right for her, primarily because this was SUDDEN ONSET gender dysphoria, seemingly after many hours spent on Tumblr and YouTube, watching transition videos. The amount of young children and teens identifying as transgender has increased exponentially over the past few years, and girls wishing to be boys now far outnumber boys wishing to be girls. So, there has got to be something else going on here with teen girls / young people - and I do honestly feel that there is a degree of social contagion going on here. We need to be very careful when Aspergers and a desire for friendship or fitting in are in the mix. These are powerful drivers in the teen years.

My daughter used to pose happily in bikinis and makeup on Facebook, until she changed friendship group..a couple of whom were non binary / trans. There is a lot of cheer leading on social media for those who come out as trans, and we should be wary of this influence on young people. 

I have lately read a number of accounts by female detransistioners, many of whom cite a change in ideological opinions about sex / gender which allowed them to start to feel comfortable with their bodies. I think it would be valid for girls to explore internal misogyny or body confidence or social anxiety issues as well as gender counselling. However, I feel that in the rush to affirm a transgender identity, other underlying issues will not be treated. 

I know that we are beginning to realise that girls on the spectrum are underdiagnosed, and we have much more to learn about autism in females. Even more reason that we should take care when prescribing them testosterone, without knowing how this will affect their experience of autism.

I am just a mum, without great medical knowledge or understanding of autism. I need to educate myself more,  but as a parent, I also need to listen to my gut instinct. 

I feel isolated and unable to have a voice about all this, because of accusations of bigotry or transphobia or that I am invalidating others. I don't want to upset anyone, I don't want anyone to be hurt, but I do want to do the right thing by my child, whatever that may eventually be, and being able to debate these issues would help.

Hi Bunnybear,

You weren't rambling at all. If there is some way of communicating directly I would definitiely be up for that. You seem to be voicing the same worries that I have. I support my child unconditionally, as I have her siblings.  I tried to word my original post carefully because I did not want to offend or upset anyone by seeming to sideline something that they feel very strongly about. (Sorry about the wording there, I know what I want to say I just can't formulate it into a coherent sentence).  

I've sought support from LGBT support groups, but when I talked to the other parents, their story did not resonate with ours.  The volnteers were people who were either going through or already had gone through the transition.  I've spoken to a volunteer from another support group who said, after talking to me for 5 minutes that her gut reaction was that my child was transgender because it wasn't something that people went into lightly, I'm not saying that they do.

It feels as if,when I am talking to someone who is transitioning or has already transitioned that they feel the need to defend themselves.  I am not against transgender, I'm not against my daughter being transgender, if that is the right path for her.  The problem is I don't think it is, and this is not through any homophobic bigoted mindset.  It is just simply that she acts like a girl. She reacts like a girl.  Her best friends are girl.  So quite frankly, my heads jangled.

I'm really not trying to dismiss or invalidate your experience. If 20% regret the change then it suggests that 80% are happy with it and you are part of that majority. The problem is that the change is drastic and difficult (impossible?) to reverse so the impact is not trivial.

All I am suggesting is that people address the autism first. People then have a choice as to whether to pursue the transsexual change. If you do it the other way round then I believe that some people would work out how to live with autism and then decide that they no longer want to make the other change.

Which reporting of this issue is fair and balanced? I chose the Graun rather than Daily Mail but do you have a better impartial source of views?

I don't think it's particularly helpful to dismiss and invalidate my experiences.  Pity, I thought I had something useful and important to contribute to this discussion.

I also don't care much for the Graun's reporting of transsexual matters either as their articles have bordered on hate-speech at times.

NAS22687 said:

I can say with absolute certainty that it would have been a serious blow to be told I had to wait for an autism assessment before gender dysphoria would have been investigated.

I don't doubt that at all. You would not have been in the right frame of mind and probably did not have the right thinking tools at your disposal, to take that obstacle well. In other words, it would have been a blow because you were seriously dysphoric and your rigid, dichotomous (i.e. autistic) thinking patterns would not have dealt with it well.

Sex change regret is not uncommon but is clearly dogged by vehement opinions on both sides. The Guardian commissioned a study www.theguardian.com/.../health.mentalhealth that found a lack of evidence of benefit and includes the following paragraph

Research from the US and Holland suggests that up to a fifth of patients regret changing sex. A 1998 review by the Research and Development Directorate of the NHS Executive found attempted suicide rates of up to 18% noted in some medical studies of gender reassignment.

I would still say the two are very different things and that it is potentially very dangerous to delay investigating gender matters.  In my case, I can say with absolute certainty that it would have been a serious blow to be told I had to wait for an autism assessment before gender dysphoria would have been investigated: both are lengthy procedures and the delays are incredibly difficult to deal with.  From what I know, the number of "regretters" who go through sex reassignment is very small, although unfortunately some cases are very highly publicised by people who are opposed to it.

Although I'm uncertain about certain specifics, what I'm confident I do know is that it is very unsafe to not take gender dysphoria seriously.

NAS22687 said:

AFAIK

which is a very human and understandable admission that there are limits to ones certain knowledge.

My belief is that it is safer, in general, to address the issues of autism and then taking stock about what one thinks one knows or thinks at that stage before proceeding with gender reassignment.

[The Capcha thing will be triggered by keywords in our posts]

It's a difficult thing to explain really: I've always seen them as two entirely separate things, and fixing one of those things has fixed it, and the thing that I didn't fix remains unfixed.  Although there seems to be a significant overlap between people with gender dysphoria and those with ASD, I think there's always a bit of a risk of assuming a cause and effect between them; both may be effects of third external cause, a currently favoured one for transsexualism being fluctuating hormone levels during foetal development.

What I can say is that I knew my gender issues were a definite problem in themselves, and weren't a random attempt to fix my underlying dysphoria: it's possible to have multiple, er, dysphoriae(?) and still be able to recognise them as distinct things.

As for how one knows, that's a difficult one to explain: it's like trying to describe a colour or a smell to someone who's never experienced either.  Ultimately, it just is.  It was broken, now it's fixed.

I'm not sure about the suicide risk being possibly related to ASD: I don't know what the rates of ASD are amongst transsexual people, only that it's "significant", but I suspect not enough to account for the attempted suicide rate of ~45% amongst untreated transsexuals.  AFAIK it's simply a case of profound misery caused by living in the "wrong body".

Edit: I'm having to fill in a lot of Captchas all of a sudden.  It's getting quite annoying. :/

Hi Vometia,

You don't come across as shouty or militant - you come across as sincere and with conviction.

I have more scepticism about how anyone can know that their transsexualism is a separate thing with ASD. I can know that I am unhappy but I have no idea what difference it would make to change my physical body to another sex - I have no experience of living in another body from which I could make an objective comparison.

I wonder how much of the suicide risk ascribed to untreated transsexualism might be related to undiagnosed ASD?

Oh, and I realised I'd forgotten to mention that it has made a big positive difference to my life.  It hasn't been a panacea and all the other problems I had are still there, but that's one major problem that's now been fixed and is out of the way.

I've got to know quite a large number of people in various stages of their transition and for most it's been a similar experience.  A number have wavered at points along the way, in part because it is a very big decision that is ultimately permanent, and also because the journey is a very, very difficult one: not only is it hard to change many things about one's everyday existence, but the path is also tortuous with many onerous requirements that in themselves caused me to have a fairly major breakdown, something that isn't uncommon; they are reviewing some of the worse aspects, thankfully, though not enough IMHO: although they need to be cautious, the whole thing can be rather adversarial in nature.

It is something that needs to be taken seriously as untreated transsexualism has a significantly high suicide risk.

I mentioned it'd been a significant and positive change to me but I should also add that the same is true of other people: some thought they'd lost a friend or relative but have come to see that I'm still here, just a lot happier and someone who can actually be someone more to them than I once was.  There's a small number who cut me off afterwards but I'd say I've gained more than I lost.

In terms of risks, the early stages (having to "live as a woman" for a year before even starting HRT, and at least two before surgery; though the latter often turns into four, five or more nowadays) was not pleasant, though I was surprised that I didn't get any hassle as I certainly was not a convincing woman.  Nowadays, nobody really seems to care or even notice, even though I'm too lazy to bother with my voice coaching.  I acknowledge that I often don't leave the house, but even I've managed to meet a large number of people in various capacities over the past few years!  Actually it has put something of a dent in my agoraphobia which was previously notable for me sometimes not leaving the house months on end.  Now it's very rare that a whole week passes without me at least getting down to the local shops.  I'm still uncomfortable with going outside, but no longer uncomfortable with myself.

Of course there's still the ASD to contend with, and that's something where I can't simply take some hormones, I'll have to learn to live within its own framework.

I can throw in my tuppence worth, if it's at all helpful.  I'm both ASD and transsexual (I normally just identify as female as it's what I'm most comfortable with and consider transsexualism as something I did rather than something that defines me; but since it's relevant) and they are separate things, though there is apparently quite a large number of transsexual people with ASD, from what I understand.

In combination they don't make life a lot of fun, but they are separate matters which each need their own treatment.  Generally speaking, transsexualism is something that few people tend to be uncertain about and it's not something that anybody would really enter into lightly: it's a lot of aggravation and change and that in itself would tend to filter out anybody who's uncertain.  The people tasked with assessing those with transsexualism are also very rigorous (I ended up being assessed by my GP, two local psychiatrists, one of whom was a professor of neurochemical malarky, three specialist consultant psychiatrists at the gender clinic and a surgeon before I'd managed to complete the procedure.)

Gender is a very important part of somebody's identity and I would ask that it's taken seriously: it's a difficult period of adjustment for everybody, but in particular for the person trying to get their life together, which is really nothing more than the majority take for granted from birth.

A few people are "gender nonconforming" which isn't something I fully understand myself but I can appreciate that it's still terribly important and to respect their wishes and decisions.  If I can't quite get it, I figure I should make the effort, because they're already making a much bigger effort just to be able to be themselves.

I hope none of that came across as being shouty or militant.  Hopefully I'm being informative rather than preachy or argumentative!  That's my intention, anyway.

First off, can I be pedantic and suggest that this thread is about Gender Dysphoria rather than dysmorphia? Gender Dysmorphia is the opposite of Gender Euphoria and it means unhappiness with ones gender.

My opinions follow - this is an area where the facts are often unclear and people will beligerantly state things as fact when the truth is much more subtle. Autistic people often state things beligerantly because we are not good at stating them diplomatically!

Undiagnosed autistic people are often deeply unhappy and dissatisfied with life. We fail to engage happily in society as we often fail to communicate diplomatically. Depression and anxiety are endemic among autistic people. It has also been observed that LGBT tendencies are also more prevalent in the autistic community than in the general population.

We also think differently.

I do not know, but I have a suspicion that, people seek a cause for the unhappiness and some people identify that they could have the 'wrong' gender and this could explain their unhappiness. They find the LGBT community as a place that accepts difference and it provides legitimacy for that explanation.

I suspect that people who have been identified as autistic and who have come to terms with that difference, and all that it means, are less likely to have gender dysphoria.

There is one complication and that is that a female who has autistic thinking patterns may identify the similarities between autistic thinking and male thinking. Autistic people are more often blunt, logical, less emotional (more Spock like) and this can appear to suggest that this is male based but in fact it is not gender based thought processes.

In summary, I think that people should come to terms with their autism first (autism is a much more definitive thing than gender identity in my opinion) before trying to work out what gender they should identify as.

Hi,

Sorry for all my typing errors, was in a hurry!

Hi Dizzy Dee,

I posted over a year ago about my child, who is f to m transgender.  Like you, it was a shock to both my husband and myself to find this out, as my then daughter had never showed any outward tendencies to identify as male. We now believe our child has Asperger's, but has never been assesssed.  My husband was diagnosed just over a year ago and we believe it is genetically in his family.  I now refer to my child as he although this has taken a long time.  As to whether or not I think of him as a 'he' that is more complex.  First and foremost, he is my child, whom I have always loved unconditionally.  I do wonder though, if this is the right thing for him.  He has been through a gender clinic, and after 3, 1 hours 'counselling' sessions (he qwas 18 at the time) they agreed he was really a male in a female body.  

He has had some surgery and is on male hormones.  He says he is so much happier now.  I don't really know if that's true.  I do believe he's found a group of people he's happy with and that support him, and as he had a lot of trouble making and keeping friends when he was younger, I'm glad he has found companionship now. He still suffers from anxiety and depression and I think there is a lot of 'stuff' that he is burying.  Of course, this is from mine and my husband's perspective and it may well be that deep down he has always identified with being male and that living as a male is the only way for him.  I am however incredulous, that at the age of 18, he could go through this process, without we, his parents being allowed any input and without any other issues being taken into consideration.

I understand how you must feel.  It does get easier, although I believe our child is still more vunerable than he cares to admit.  You can only be there for them and yes they have to live their own lives.  However when that means major body and not just lifestyle changes, that can be very difficult to just accept.  There should be some sort of joint counselling for parents and offspring who are contemplating this.  Many psyvhologist now state that adults are not emotionally mature until 25 and yet from 18 we as parent have now say in what happens to them.  

Sorry for rambling, but I hope it helps you to know you are not alone with your worries about your child.  I don't know if there is any way we can get in touch directly, or even if you would want to but good luck and remember, that even thought may not always seem like it, your child loves you and needs you.

My daughter started with panic attacks in her final year of high school.  I ended up sitting in school as she did her GCSEs because I was the only person who could calm her.  She got good results in her exams, mainly As and Bs and went on to college.  The panic attacks and anxiety got worse and by Christmas it was clear that she couldn't carry on in college. I had tried everything, I'd talked my jaw off, tough love,you don't get advice on the best way to deal with these sorts of situations.  So, my clever beautiful girl was at home a complete nervous wreck, couldn't go to the shop, couldn't speak to her grandparents on the phone.  She did CBT, she said it didn't help. She had counselling, she thought he was an idiot, convinced that her dictatorial parents were bullying her into something she didn't want to do. We are actually a very close supportive family.  She completed Prince's Trust which increased her confidence, she did a 1 year apprenticeship in the Primary School she attended which further boosted her confidence.   When out of the blue she decided she wanted to attend university to study art, something she's been obsessive about forever.  

So 12 months on she's just completed her 1st year, she still has panic attacks, she is on fluxocetine for her anxiety, which she stops taking with alarming regularity because she thinks she doesn't need it any more.

A lot of waffle I know, but, when she was filling her forms in for her first year she told me she identified as male.  Talk about bomb shell. She went out with a girl for a matterof days and looked awkward as all hell.  Her next partner was a boy she is still friends with, she looked much more comfortable cuddling into him.   She's also been out with another boy which has finished over the gender issue. She says she identifies as a gay man.  Her friendship circle at school, although small has always been mainly girls, and is at uni.

Through all this we have tried to be as supportive as possible.  She's changed her name to Charlie, I can't use male pronouns with her because she is just too girly, so I try to use gender neutral terms.

She dresses in jeans and baggy tees, she's a carbon copy of me at her age.  Her reactions are girly, things are 'too cute' and 'adorable'.

During this past year it has been suggested to me that she may have social communication issues and she has recently been diagnosed as aspergers. 

Now the issue I've got is, is she aspergers with gender issues or is she a transgender with aspergers.  When Aspergers was first suggested I had a light bulb moment, things fell into place.  She had alsways been hard work, but she was the youngest of 4, Daddy's 'Ka Ka pants'.  I thought she was opinionated, argumentative, obsessive, looking at these traits with an aspergers lens things made sense.

Applyiong a transgender lens isn't having the same affect, and I don't know what to do for the best. She has now changed her name by deed poll.  My gut reaction is that she is a girl.  I've talked to her about this, but she is upset by my opinion.  I don't know how best to support her.

I just wanted to know if anyone else had had similar experiences, or advice.

Sorry for the long post.

Hello bunnybear & welcome,

I'm not sure if my ramblings will make ense, but here goes.

    Those on the spectrum have to come to terms with the fact that they might have the condition, in their own time. Sadly, their is little you can do to highlight something others aren't willing or indeed able to accept. Couple this with some of the ignorance and social stigma attached to any form of 'diffference' in society and it drives these issues further underground. As a society I guess we are just not their yet.

In reading what I have on the subject and through watching a few videos, it seems some of those on the spectrum don't really see gender as an issue when looking for a partner, however, others see their own 'current gender' as the reason for their unhappiness. I guess it's hard to appreciate how much that impacts an individual, unless you experience it yourself.

In a world where acceptance is often deeply lacking however, finding a tribe to which you belong, can be a lifeline to many who feel finally understood or embraced by others that have endured similar rejection issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiUhlvOpqAU

I'm a late diagnosed adult with ASD but, as an individual, I've always been very accepting of others and their differences. Creed, colour, gender have never presented barriers for me. So when my son explained how he felt to me, it was no surprize, however, knowing what I know now, and having done the research into my own families history, I can see that theirs a chance that changing one element of one's self, will not necessarily change everything for an individual and that can lead to further disappointment at a later date.

Discovering I had ASD has been way more lifechanging than I could of expected. I'm no longer singlely a Dyslexic, Dyspraxic or Asthmatic individually. I'm an ASPIE and these things are collectively are the entirity of my particular ASD profile. My concerns lie in that others, like me, just see their unhappiness or depression as being causal because of only one element of their lives. If I was a girl/boy, things would be different! It's seldom that simplistic.

As a parent, my job is to nuture and protect my children. Any surgical proceedures are difficult for me to imagine, yet you have to weigh up an individuals mental well-being and the wider issues that might be at play, which despite the apparent obviousness, few of us see.

Women on the spectrum have a tendancy to mask their emotions or feelings very well and for long periods and this does make diagnosis difficult. Depression can often follow as a result of supressing who they feel they really are, but it can also be born from the difficult life experiences they've had in their failure to communicate effectively. I know this was true in my own case, but worrying about our childrens choices, makes little impact on the situation. We can only be their for them.

As much as we as parents want to prevent harm or anguish in our children, we really do have to let our offspring find their own path in life. Accepting difference is the moto of NAS. I guess, until that's achieve, many on the specrtum or otherwise,will struggle.

Greater dialogue should be encouraged here. I wish more would express their contrasting views and opinions.

Take Care

Coogybear

I've just found this forum.  My 23 year old  is living as a transman.  I can't begin to tell you how difficult this has all been.  As a young girl, she was different and found it difficult to fit in, especially with other girls.  She had a terrible time growing up but never showed any signs of not being ok with her gender. That was until her late teens. When she embarked on changing her gender, her clinic seemed to pass her for hormone treatment very quickly.  It has only been over the last couple of years that we have thought she has Aspergers but she doesn't agree with this.  It appears that other members of the family also have Aspergers.

I worry that because she was depressed that she didn't fit in that she found (online) a reason why.  I do realise that some Aspergers traits are traditionally male but  maybe we need to help them feel at ease in their own skins, rather than changing their gender - in some cases at least.  Finally I find it disturbing that there are so few places where we can express our concerns regarding this.

I don't know how to work this site yet either...just joined myself. I tried to find your email by clicking on your name but there is no info there...and I don't know if mine shows up either. I will try to include my email...or send me yours if you like? If I can't figure it out I will ask a moderator on this site to help us. I would definately like to connect! I have been away for christmas and now have company for a week but will check this site daily to see if you have responded :)