Defiant behaviour ruining our family

When I was a child a weekly bath was plenty enough. I hated showers, especially if the water goes over the head, I still hate that, no way could I use one of those big above the head showers like rain, I can only use one where the head can be lowered to chest height for washing the body, then raised a little to do the hair from behind. Never on the face! That can be washed separately.

My weekly bath was a pleasant gentle experience as my Mum would read to me. I guess once i did get too old for that at some point, possibly puberty. But I wouldn't have wanted it more than once a week. I still do not have a daily shower, I could not handle that. Nobody has told me I stink! I use deodorant and bits can be cleaned at the sink between shower/bath time!

Teeth cleaning can also be an issue for us hypersensitives. I cannot bear frothy toothpaste, sensodyne is usually not too bad. Some of us need mild tasting ones, I love strong fresh mint but some of us cannot stand it. Also the toothbrush can be an issue, soft bristles are usually better. The brand I used to prefer started making ones that felt squeaky! Horrible. Again, sensodyne was better. Ask her if there are any issues like that?

I liked bedtime, but I had a night light which i could read by, so I would read in bed. I did go to sleep at a reasonable hour by choice, as I got woken at 7am I tried to stop reading by 11pm or I knew I would be tired. Is she allowed to read in bed? Not screens though! In my day of course no such thing, just paper books. But e-ink is OK too as it doesn't have the blue light which is bad for sleep.

She might have PDA, pathological demand avoidance, have you looked into that?

I see a child that is struggling. She cannot control her meltdowns, and finds them infuriating, however gentle and reassuring you are, she will still act the same way until you can figure out what her triggers are. She sounds like she’s trying to avoid sleeping. Could it be sensory issues with washing and brushing her teeth? Or something in her bed? Does she have a weighed blanket?

Demands are hard for some autistic people, so I think you need to find a new way of asking. There are methods to look up online, or you could try getting in touch with autismandadhd.org and request a video to watch which might help. She isn’t being nasty, and does have empathy. It’s just displayed differently. It can be very hard to understand as a parent, especially if you aren’t also autistic. It’s a long process to get to grips with, but I feel that things will improve as you all learn about each other.

That is all very helpful, and pretty much allows me to "tap-out" of this conversation because the behaviours you describe do not resonate with my curious experiences of defiance.  I do hope that others in this place will be able to help you further.

I wish you all a peaceful and happy Christmas period.

Thank you to those who responded and asked for examples. A typical example is bedtime. We have a routine that has been adapted as the children grew and always was very successful until three years ago it is including calming activities etc but she regularly seems to begin to resist the routine (specifically shower and teeth brushing which she hates) she refuses to do something she is calm initially just saying no I won't be doing that. Sometimes we say that's ok if she has washed recently or if she becomes angry and aggressive we calmly tell her it's ok we can do it in the morning instead. This escalates to where we have given privacy to get ready with clear time to complete getting changed. However she is will get distracted and if we leave she will go to to her brother's room and start taking things from his room and causing him to get upset with her asking her to leave and give things back. We return and ask her to leave his room she tells us she isn't in his room whilst in his room. She begins to get angry shouting at us that I'm not going to bed you can't make me. We continue to calmly encourage her to get changed using distraction to help which sometimes does IE discussing what's happened today. If it doesn't work she starts throwing things around her room and at us. We ask if she would like space to be on her own she screams yes then tells us we always just leave her. We sit outside her room whilst we hear her removing things from under her bed and under she goes. When it's quiet I go in and lay next to her bed asking her is she is ok and what she would find helpful. We convince her to come out then just as she seems to calm she jumps up and runs under her desk with a notepad to say she is writing a story or a book to read. We tell her she can do this for a couple of minutes then she needs to go to bed. She nods and becomes mute choosing to write instead. We sit outside or go downstairs. Returning as promised she seems a different person chatting happily like nothing happened about her story. We think success and get her into bed. Song and story back into routine. We go downstairs. She appears a few minutes later laying on the floor at our feet. We ask her to return to bed as it's now Very late. She ignores us and refuses to speak writing things instead whilst screeching like an animal at us. At this point we either calmly return to the same type of calmly trying to encourage her or we get cross and say that's enough and carry her to bed whilst she screeches. Sometimes our change into getting cross pulls her out and she breaks down sobbing that she hates herself and wants to run away other times she rises up to match us. Eventually she tires herself out one way or the other. 

Dear Trying mum.  More detail required - some examples- both typical and atypical of the "defiance" being exhibited (when, why or what etc)!  There are plenty of parents and grown-up kids on here - both ASD and NT - that will probably have perspectives on your lived experience with this issue and some will hopefully have some suggestions about potential ways forward............but more info required if you can.

All the best.

If you have examples of what exactly is happening, it can help create a better understanding of why she's responding the way she is and what she's responding to.

I want to try and help! As a mum - I know this word gets chucked about quite a bit, but Boundaries aren't something we create with our children when they're under our care, but Rules are. Boundaries are what humans learn to create when they're older to keep themselves from harm, like from a toxic or abusive relationship. 

Usually when a child appears non-responsive it can be they've become withdrawn which is a human safety mechanism - the Freeze response in Survival mode (fight flight freeze fawn). Something is happening in these exchanges at a fundamental level where Trust and matters of Safety, which are priority, are getting lost. 

But first it sounds as though you and your husband need to have a support system in place, which can provide an anchor for everyone. It would be his job to mind your PTSD, our children won't have this capacity until they're much older - they're still attempting to navigate the world. This is even harder for Autistic children who are a complete mismatch in society, and often experience a type of sensory assault due to their inability to filter out unwanted signals like non-autistics. We have a different Salience Network and simply need help shielding, but when undiagnosed, we may still be struggling a great deal with an inability to find the words for what we're sensing in a mind that is pure chaos like our ADHD friends. I couldn't find the language or access the words I needed until I was closer to 30 and even at 35 was struggling with identifying emotions (Alexithymia). 

Empathy is another term that's often misunderstood. In a clinical sense and regarding Autism it means Relating With and Responding as Expected. It's a word that implies a sort of telepathy. Like minded individuals have an immediate 'empathy' for one another, but clashing personalities won't. Now, we can certainly show a generosity of Sympathy or Compassion, and that she can be caring is your clue that a very vulnerable girl is looking for safety in these moments and cannot make sense of what is happening.

I'd love to be able to help, but I don't have a context here. Sometimes just one perspective shift can alleviate everyone's stress.

When looking through research, many of us are realising Autistics are driven to resolution, to a type of analysis, while NeuroNormative peers are can be driven and rewarded by social acceptance, even dominance. What this means is that autistic children might come to a full stop in their tracks from confusion or complete overwhelm, more like a little elephant  that won't budge. This is different than defiance. Given that we're driven differently, we're also rewarded differently. 

A typical problems parents aren't always aware of: The neurological wiring which allows most non-autsitics to be social, loves surprises. But Autistics don't have that same "asymmetrical brain", have a great deal of difficulty with switching tasks, smash-cut edit interruptions, but interruptions in general are like waking a sleepwalker and can feel physically painful. 

At the end of the day, you're the parent. It may be you need to take more time out to self-care, so you can be grounded for them. With children, very few things are matters of consequence. 

Thank you so much. I have been through therapy only recently completing a second course but it is a battle I am constantly trying to win. She is Asperger's end also and highly sensitive and we are one another's triggers without a doubt. It is a balance I'm not quite mastering and I am most definitely not good at being kind to myself. It is all so exhausting and perhaps I'm not giving myself the care I need to be able to care for her. I feel she deserves so much better than I give. I appreciate you taking time to comment. Just knowing it's not just me is a huge help. 

Ah yes been there.. seriously though it may be the teenage hormones as my son was unpleasant as a teenager but it calmed down when he got to twenty. Hormones basically make us act in whatever way they want and we are at mercy of them. A thought did occur to me as have same combo here ie son with aspergers and me the mum with ptsd after working on myself for the sake of my son I did have enough clarity to see in fact that my underlying stress was being picked up on by him as he's uber sensitive and I find when I'm calm he is calm...I find if I get my own demons under control I have just enough energy left to help him its a tough ballance as u need to care for your self so you can be strong for them  Aspergers demands more of your time and energy ie there is no break or time out..is best to look at yourself first ie how can you improve yourself in order to be able to give more to your child as sometimes they may need mum more first rather than the shrink. Try to have a heart to heart with her but keep it easy and listen to her give her space to react as sometimes it is hard to process things.