Defiant behaviour ruining our family

From reading more it's beginning to sound like ADHD - less sleep, quick changes, usually good at communicating, but possibly severe difficulties with executive function. I might suggest to inquire down this path first. But then still, a daughter needs a mother to sometimes just do things with her, connexion or just being present never hurts :) x

Also it's a lot to learn about asd you know so don't be hard on yourself and don't be hard on her you know take a deep breath  and baby steps take a walk is she stresses you etc. Also the refuse to talk ..what's actually happening is that inside her brain instead of the language pathways going from a to b like in neuro typical person ..with aspbergers it goes z to d back to c then a etc.. in other words very hard to process and also she overwhelmed by other things at same time..did you know recent studies show that apbreger person can have 100 times more nerve in the spine than neuro typical also lots of other things basicaly they are getting 100 times more the info that you are n also it's not always processed right either.. look online scientific papers etc it will help you realise just what she's dealing with and help you rediscover the child you love .

My son usualy shows bad behaviour when he is overwhelmed. For my son to have peacefully life and not get overwhelmed I have no one round the house and we moved to very quite location and he by his own choice doesn't go out ..sad but there it is..this way he rarely gets overwhelmed,  so I'm thinking  your child is most likely getting overwhelmed by soo many things as you likely have normal household etc but you have to understand she probably getting overwhlemd by just about everything and is not able to deal with it at all.Im fortunate in that it's just me and.my son and I can devote myself to him..because  I love him, but I know that in an ideal world you could have a situation where she's not overwhelmed but instead you'll just have to try to do what you can..ask her what things are hard for her ie sounds smells colours etc..list is endless. Also keep these conversations s brief and  wait even sometimes days to get an answer as they can't always process it straight away

My daughter is much the same she can say incredibly hurtful things one minute then be bending over backwards to help me and say something so incredibly meaningful and beautiful the next. I know it is never personal but it does hurt. They are incredible people these children navigating the world. 

Aspbergers will also affect ..an example is that my son says well that's what you did..ie he looks to me as to how he should go about In the world ie you have to lead by example..its more so with aspbergers because they are more vulnerable than a neuro typical kid...aspergers kid might seem at times they're being spiteful to you etc but it is only  them behaving this way due to them not having the tools we have ..you know its because there is no other way to respond you see they have no other option choice..so it's not your child being horrible you see. And you have to trust that your child loves you even when it's challenging as to what I said about above...just trust and let it go over your head when you feel hurt by them as its not personal...trust and you may be surprised later on as my son can say something sometime and it's like damn that hurt that was cold etc but I let it slide coz of what I explained above.then another day he'll be all there for me 110% he'll do something for me that he put so much effort into and you know they care then..even if you didn't want it lol even though it has too be something they're interested in lol but you know that intention is still there

Thank you for your response that's helpful to know what she may be experiencing. I will definitely consider that when she has these moments again. It must be incredibly frightening to feel that way. 

You mentioned she "refuses to speak" and I have often heard parents and teachers use this phrase about autistic children.

The problem is, it's not always a choice.  People assume that because we can speak most of the time, we should be able to speak all of the time.  But sometimes, when I am overwhelmed by events or emotions I just can't get any words out no matter how hard I try.  There are words in my head, but I cannot get my mouth to move and articulate them.  It's a strange and sometimes frightening feeling.  

It's good that she's still able to communication by writing.

Thank you so much for your kind words. She is an incredibly special person and I will work to support her in any way I can. Your words have meant a lot as I often feel I'm failing her so you give me hope that we will get through. Kindest thanks 

We are continuing to explore what her triggers may be and have a weighted blanket which has been very helpful at times. Thank you for your recommendations to watch videos on asking the right questions and how to ask to. It's the start of a long journey and one we will travel together. 

We have tried to change bedtime but unfortunately she is a very early riser waking at 6am ready for action every day and occasionally waking at 3am wide awake to. On days she gets less sleep there is a very obvious deterioration in her ability to manage emotions and more so with school. She is very early into puberty and her sleep habits may change and we will adapt with it. Thank you 

Thank you so much for that clip what an interesting video and such a lot of useful information. As we don't know which or if both are at play it's a balancing act but this information is so helpful I'm improving our understanding. 

Thank you for taking the time to write this for us. She is normally very good at communicating and is actually very aware of her own behaviour and often openly discusses with us her worries and concerns. We have always been a very open and honest family providing opportunities to discuss feelings and worries without pressure or judgement but she seems to get so lost she becomes like a different person and I find that scary if I'm honest as though I've lost her. I can see she is a scared overwhelmed child but this angry one just keeps pushing me away. I know it isn't personal but when she tells me she hates me it feels personal. I will definitely take on board your ideas and thoughts and continue to learn how she needs me to respond in different situations as we are finding what she wants from us changes frequently and we are all learning. 

Thank you so much we have had a discussion about these issues and she hates the taste of toothpaste so we are looking at alternative favours. The shower she would like to choose a nice smelling soaps as she likes the shower just not the time it takes. She does read before bed often getting lost in a book for hours at a time so had access to a whole library in her room and she will be receiving a night light to read by for Christmas so this is something that I agree will help this process. 

She's 9. Autistic children 'mature' at a slower pace than their peers. Females also tend to be more relational.

I get this, but if the Fundamental Problem were a need for a later bedtime, she wouldn't be going downstairs! She'd be reading quietly and contentedly in her bed happy to finally be alone avoiding everyone.

She’s hit puberty right? So she’s adapting to a more typical teenage sleep cycle. Awake and alert in the evenings tired in the mornings. Part of the combat around bathing etc might be that it’s a precursor to bed. You can’t expect her to lay in bed her mind going a million miles a minute and not feel frustrated. Or drag her out of bed in the morning when her mind is still sluggish and not expect her to feel grumpy. Maybe it’s time for a new bedtime.

Oh my lordie....another "ohhhh - that's why" penny drops !

Thank you Juniper.

Hi Tryingmum, you are in a very tough situation which reminds me of my childhood. I wish I had had such a loving and considerate mum as you. I have no fancy advice to give other than your love will win through. Everyone with ASD is different I would not presume to understand the needs of your very special daughter. Best wishes 

It’s easy to be confrontational when you feel the other side is unreasonable or the situation is stacked against you.

you say you try to reason with her. But imagine you weren’t dealing with a child but an adult not inclined to do what you want. Would you expect your reasons and explanations to work on an adult?

it’s been my observation that autistic children often approach conflict more like adults than children. You may need to treat her more like an adult in your arguments if you hope to talk your way through to a resolution.

Have a look at this video on "Body Doubling": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni9biXNDZe0

This young woman helps make sense of a great deal of Autistic/ADHD traits. Internally, these two neurodivergent types are wired very similar. The differences are usually external. ADHD love the chaos, require less sleep and need physical exhaustion. Autistics want external order to balance the internal chaos, require at least 8 hours sleep, prefer solo-focused exercises like judo or yoga and need intellectual exhaustion. 

Even before I got to the part where she yells that you always just leave her, I could sense that this is a big part of the problem. Once this problem, or conflict has been created, she will then require (like any grown adult) resolution as now internally she's not longer calm. In the creative arts, we stress journal writing before bed to help perform a necessary calming task that one might perform in a therapists office: expelling the internal conflicts so they can be resolved. 

She feels abandoned. Now, this isn't your fault, as leaving a (typical) child to do a thing themselves is a way of teaching or allowing a sense of agency. With Autistic and ADHD children, we afford agency when they finally 'take the reins and ask us to leave'. OR we afford agency with Creative tasks. Autistic and ADHD children have a few things in common at their core - executive function difficulty (this can be related to their internal 'chaotic' minds, a sense of everything-all-at-once from a difficulty filtering out unwanted signals/sensory sources) and a need to feel connected (not unique, not alone, not marginalised, as they are overwhelmingly aware of how different they are from everyone else. This is daunting for a child).

Teeth brushing, getting changed, ritualistic tasks we perform as part of our modern society are all things better done together. In an anthropological setting, humans didn't do these things. Most of us didn't read 200 years ago, as a species our innate selves lived very different lives. Executive Function wasn't required - we moved with nature, not against it (to some degree).

Right now there seems to be this moment of impact that she responds to - leaving her to an overwhelming task alone. And internally, this severs her ability to trust you care about her overall well-being. Which then compounds the task as if she's been severed from the whole collective, left to 'do' life in isolation. It has an emotional impact and sets in motion a whole evening of unnecessary added problems. As a parent, it took me a long time to learn to say "how can I help" or "help me understand how I'm hurting you". The bigger problem is, they have a limited command of language and if they're already in survival mode, emotional regulation is now gone. 

Here's what I'd suggest. Put a little extra effort in for these night time 'tasks' by turning them into a Team Effort. This may sound a bit much, but think of it this way - spending 20 minutes with her in these ritualistic routines will save an entire evening of unnecessary heartbreak (and she won't need to pay a therapist when she's 30 to try and work out why she felt abandoned).  Perform brushing teeth as team work: she holds the toothbrush & you apply the paste (or reverse if this seems more fun). Give her the option between 2 PJs if applicable and have her hand clothes to her like 2 friends in a clothing shop. Bring a cup of tea with, perform these together as if you're just 'hanging out'. Read her the story and sing the songs while in the shower or bath. 

The first Problem in a Horror film is always severed communication. The audience knows that only misfortune will follow. Do whatever is necessary to stay connected. Erich Fromm talks of Isolation as being the entry point to all addiction, to anything in the human heart which goes wrong, to being the root cause of almost anything which goes wrong. Create a sense of connectedness and your children will feel a sense of being anchored, the consequence is they'll trust you, and you'll find you won't ever need to make demands or 'discipline' them.