Any ASD spectrum people think it's other people who are the problem?

Yes OP - absolutely agree - its other people, NT people, - they fail to hear what you are saying, make things up because they think you have some subtext or other, make assumptions, just can't take on board what you said is actually what you meant...can't follow logic, real pain to deal with and so frustrating. I find I do better with writing things down.

I also have found over the years that the NT types somehow sense 'difference' and, like a gang of scholboys, seem to defalt to 'hate' and start the bullying and backstabbing, usually based on something they misunderstood, and become totally impossible to reason with or talk to.

I do find a lot of NTs often talk for the sake of talking, parroting something they have read or some current meme, without any real understanding behind what they are saying, going on and on about something with no relevance to what was just said. I think people do this to reassure themselves - maybe its some kind of group bonding thing - anyway its pretty frustrating.

Hello,

I am a 51yr old female (tomboy) and was diagnosed two years ago. I realised i was on the spectrum when i was 46. When i was younger i really felt the world was full of nimcompoops and i would get into "arguments" when i thought i was trying to explain myself. The more words i used the more antagonistic people got. I would get tired of people around me for too long. I was not interested in their conversations. I had no interest in their lives and no intention of sharing mine. I got fed up with "games" and double meanings. And yes, people not hearing my words because they assumed i meant something else. I found it all exhausting.

Once i got my head around my diagnosis... which resulted in my 18yrs relationship with a controlling NT ending because of the "stigma" i became much happier in myself. Contentment and at peace for longer periods of time. I live alone now and that works much better for me. 

I have worked in the same job for 14yrs, the team have got used to my unique traits (even only 3 know my diagnosis) and i have got to trust that when they tell me to calm down, breathe, to be quiet, that they are not attacking me but pointing out that my behaviour is getting a bit wild because they realise i am not aware of it. They no longer flinch when i point out mistakes, they in turn realise i bring the errors up because i hope to help them improve their work, not because i want to upset them.

I had to share my diagnosis with my managers. They have both been very accepting, and if anything were not surprised at all once they googled Autism/Aspergers etc. They have now gone from seeing me as challenging and argumentative when given work to do, to trying to simply understand what they want from me, and why.

I agree with Pixiefox. I am seen as blunt and abrasive in my communication, i do not do social niceties, but i am empathic for people's negative emotions. It upsets me to see people in emotional pain and i really feel it as if it was my own. And that is exhausting. At the end of the day i love coming home to my flat, not having to decipher NT behaviour, not having to try and filter my Autistic reactions, not being bombarded by NT emotions that they deny having, which is bizarre.

If over worked, anxious or not sleeping well my Autistic traits break free and can cause issues. I have grown to understand myself much better now, and am grateful for my Autistic abilities.

Interesting thread, I have not been able to fully take it in, having a lot of stuff to deal with personally at the moment.

I have been feeling similar to whats mentioned in the first post. The view I am taking is the impression given that "NeuroTypical" is the superior way to behave is not always the case. This has helped me to accept my diagnosis, and in areas "Aspergers" behaviour is superior, taking things literally being one of them.

Having said that, one of things I am struggling to accept, is that my Father has aspergers (I think that is most probably the case), although I have experienced some of the negative NT behaviour mentioned in the first post. One of the reasons why I have decided not to discuss my Aspergers with my Father.

What an interesting topic, and some very insightful posts too.

When I first started to realise that my ASD diagnosis was looking likely, long before it was officially confirmed, I began to feel very bitter about the society around me.  Up until then, I had blamed my own "uselessness" and "unlikability" for the problems that led me to anxiety and depression.  When it became clear that I'm autistic, I switched from everything being "my fault", to believing that everything was the fault of the NT people around me.  This led me to become very bitter, cynical and depressed about the society around me.  Very much the "black and white" thinking talked about earlier.

But I've calmed down a bit in the months since then, and try to take a more nuanced view of what happens when there's a clash between my way of thinking and doing, and those of the people around me.

Even if I disclose my autism diagnosis to the NT people around us, it is worthwhile to remember that without a lot of "coaching" about my specific, personal differences, the word "autism" alone does very little to help NT people understand me.  I am learning now to be a little bit more assertive at the "point of contact" rather than relying on people to adjust their behaviour based on a general statement of my condition.  For example, explicitly telling people when they are talking too fast to keep up with, or that I'm uncertain whether I've understood something.  This can be daunting, and certainly doesn't *always* help, but I find it is generally more effective.

The second thing that I try to remember is that NT people can no more change their innate characteristics than I can.  So many of the NT behaviours that autistic people might find frustrating are processed on a sub-conscious level, reinforced by a lifetime of interaction with people who are, 99% of the time, not autistic.  That sub-conscious processing is there for a reason - evolution has developed those "instincts" in human brains because it reduces the amount of conscious processing that the brain needs to do, and enables people to react more rapidly and fluidly to a fast-changing environment.  The instincts are far from infallible, of course, but as "rules of thumb", they do serve most people, most of the time, very well.

As an example, here's a scenario that my counsellor put to me recently...

A person sits down in a social setting, and is joined by two others, one sitting on each side of them.  Both of these people will not look the first person in the eye, are showing "closed" body language, and respond with one-word mumbles if spoken to.  One of these other two people is autistic, the other is someone who has previously been offended by our protagonist and is only sitting there because it is the last remaining seat in the room - they're only reacting at all for the sake of decorum.

Without a good understanding of autism, and advance knowledge that one of the companions is autistic, our protagonist has no way to discern the difference between these two people.  And in the absence of other information, their instinctive judgement that they are trapped between *two* people who dislike them would be correct 99% of the time.

As an autistic person, I do not have a magic "on" button that will give me the kind of instinctive insight that most NT people are using when they socialise.  But I need to remember that NT people don't have a magic "off" switch for their innate traits, either.  Because it is largely sub-conscious behaviour, I will need to explicitly remind people to consider my needs sometimes, because they do not have an internal "prompt" to remind them not to slip into their familiar ways of thinking about other people.

Whenever I find myself slipping into the cynical belief that people are being callous or malicious, I take a deep breath and remind myself of the above.  Sometimes they are just nasty, inconsiderate people - but in that case, most NT folks would probably dislike them just as much as I do.

Yes to all that. I think it's probably because people are unsure of others who behave differently. Our young person was approached with a question about the bus timetable. Didn't know, said so, but the other person, probably because our kid was anxious and didn't smile took it to be a brush off and commented negatively.

The world is geared to the majority, I guess...which makes it harder for the minority.

Certainly I don't think it is solely an NT feature. I don't know. I can be quite direct, and do require people to be quite direct with me. Dont hint. Tell me direct. I'd rather have that because my brain over thinks and gets anxious.

But I guess what Im saying, is that Im quite a shy person, socially anxious. If socialising comes so easy to these people, why don't they make more of an effort? Why is it left up to the people with Aspergers, Shyness, Confidence or Social Anxiety to make an effort with them? Why don't they make an effort with us? 

And we can't think bad of them, but they can think bad of us, and not necessarily "bad" par se, but they might think that we're cold, we don't want to know, very private, very whatever. Im an open book myself. But no one gives me the time of day.

Pixiefox - I hadn't seen your reply. Interesting read. I think (I hope!) what I said was that the OP expressed some black and white thinking about NTs, not generally, nor implying that all ASD have this problem. I'm sure people, whether on the spectrum or not are all varied.

Undiagnosed - It's true that some people do promise and not deliver, they do turn up late, or not say what they mean (usually either to be polite, or to allow themselves an escape from a situation they don't want to face). Apart from using metaphorical or obtuse language, I hadn't thought that this was solely a NT feature.

Pixiefox - The anxiety is the biggest problem for our young person. I have thought about trying to get them to meet others on the spectrum, but have no idea how this is possible, particularly in a university setting. Any thoughts you have on this would be much appreciated.

Pixiefox - I hadn't seen your reply. Interesting read. I think (I hope!) what I said was that the OP expressed some black and white thinking about NTs, not generally, nor implying that all ASD have this problem. I'm sure people, whether on the spectrum or not are all varied.

Undiagnosed - It's true that some people do promise and not deliver, they do turn up late, or not say what they mean (usually either to be polite, or to allow themselves an escape from a situation they don't want to face). Apart from using metaphorical or obtuse language, I hadn't thought that this was solely a NT feature.

Pixiefox - The anxiety is the biggest problem for our young person. I have thought about trying to get them to meet others on the spectrum, but have no idea how this is possible, particularly in a university setting. Any thoughts you have on this would be much appreciated.

Oh yeah. I get massive problems with relationships. Not all relationships though, I just don't know where I fit in to their master plan.

NT people seem to have a hapless, happy go lucky sort of style, that it doesn't matter what really happens to people around them. They care about themselves, and rarely think about others.

It's not just words and actions, it's behaviour. It's contradictions, like calling someone a friend then not adding them on Facebook, or replying to text messages. Someone promises something and doesn't fulfil their end of the bargain and you're left in Limbo.

But it seems that my reaction is the wrong one. NT people seem to have this ability to switch off, to not let this stuff bother them, to know that despite it all, these people are still friends. They don't place any importance on friendships it seems.

It's strange.

Someone lets me down, Im upset, but Im not supposed to get an apology? 

What NT people say, isn't what they do. And if they have a problem with you, they don't tell you to "be polite".

I go onto relationship forums who decode all this information and things that's going on. How do they draw all that information out? They say that the people Im struggling with are sending signals, but they're being polite. What? How? Why?

Interesting viewpoint. Although one I can't wholly understand, as you might imagine, as I am an ant. Our ASD young person might agree with you, I guess.

Do you think there is any kind of solution that might practically be applied, given that we can't easily change the expectations of one group to accommodate another?

S, your post was very insightful. I identified with your comment about how autism used to be viewed - in fact, I thought that even the quite recent horizon programme about autism didn't give the full picture of the Autistic spectrum; there seemed to be a lot of focus on communication problems, which I don't identify with, and not much explanation of the anxiety which ASD people suffer - the only person I identified with on that programme was the woman with aspergers who does presentations about it - she was my reason for looking into whether I might be on the spectrum. 

I also identify with feeling that some social activities are pointless. I used to either attend work social events and suffer discomfort or make up a reason why I couldn't attend. Now I thank the person organising the event, for the invitation  but say it's not something I enjoy doing. 

Possum - re your comment about black and white thinking and tact; we're not all like that. My ASD husband thinks more in that way, but I have pretty good communication skills, honed by years of studying other people and attending communication skills and assertiveness training, so I can "do" tact and if I forget to think before I speak I usually guess if I might have offended someone and explain that I didn't mean to. As not all NT's are the same, ASD people also vary a lot. For instance, while some cannot pick up what emotions other people are feeling, some, like me, are emotional empaths - we not only pick up on the emotional pain others are feeling, we actually experience it personally. Unfortunately this empathy seems to mainly encompass the negative emotions such as anger, frustration, anxiety and despair, which makes some days exhausting. 

You say that your young ASD person is keen to make friends but has difficulties with this. Are there any opportunities for him/her to make friends with other ASD young people? If not, is this something you could arrange? Although I get on well with several NT people, I feel most comfortable with my husband and best friend, both who are on the spectrum. 

Possum, I didn' t mean any offense to you or any other NTs.

I guess, it is one of these instances where polite thing would be to agree that "all people are different" and leave it at that. However, claiming concession for my "social deficits", I disagree and respond instead.

1." Quite a black and white perspective on NTs!"

Where is the black and white  ? there are no blanket statements "all NT's are...".

Of course not all NT's are backstabbing and judgemental. probably most are not like that. However, those few people who are like that, are much more likely to be NT than "on the spectrum". Therefore, it is fair to say that lying and backstabbing are NT behaviours. Like hand-flapping are considered "autistic behaviours". Doesn't mean all autistics flap their hands. 

2. "Fitting in with a group need not be sheep-like. Ants do rather well with their co-operative activity. Some seemingly 'pointless' activities are down to politeness, rules of engagement and social expectation. You can have these things as well as a different point of view, interests, ways of doing things, lifestyle etc. "

Even sheep are not identical in their looks or behaviours (except Dolly and her clones:) ). But let's replace sheep-like with "NT people-like" to make it less offensive. You need to be much more similar to other group members to fit into an NT-people group as opposed to "spectrum" group. this is where sheeple come from. NTs are usually less accepting of differences. Many "social problems" are only problems when dealing with NTs. not between "spectrum people"

"Ants do rather well with their co-operative activity." Yes, ants are amazing in their synchrony and unity. Their colonies are even called superorganisms. NT people are nowhere near that level of agreement and cooperation :)) we wouldn't have so much violence if they really were like ants :)

Again, no offense was intended, "ant-people" was just an informal term we used and still use between us, at home, to describe people that are now called NT. Back then, where i was, autism as a disorder did not exist unless you were non-verbal. and even then it was only for kids and turned to schizophrenia or "got cured" at adulthood.

3. "Some seemingly 'pointless' activities are down to politeness, rules of engagement and social expectation."

 Exactly. The only point of some social activities ( pls note, i do not say "all" activities") is to "fulfil  expectations". but what if we have different expectations ? Those activites have no intrinsic value, for a different group they are pointless. pressure to confom breeds anxiety. wrong environment. 

I've had a lot of difficulties with NTs throughout my life and I don't bother with people anymore. I've been bullied, used and manipulated all through my life. I can't figure them out at all and they've caused trouble for me a few times at work. I'm pretty suspicious and withdrawn around them now. 

I suppose there must be nice people out there, but you never know whether they're being genuine or even telling the truth. 

I find them to be over emotional and illogical. My communication style is too direct and they don't like it. They dislike my unsentimental pragmatism as well. I feel as though I'm dealing with children sometimes. 

Quite a black and white perspective on NTs! Fitting in with a group need not be sheep-like. Ants do rather well with their co-operative activity. Some seemingly 'pointless' activities are down to politeness, rules of engagement and social expectation. You can have these things as well as a different point of view, interests, ways of doing things, lifestyle etc.

There's a mix of people who are NT and a mix who are on the spectrum. NT people aren't all judgmental or backstabbing. They are varied.

The only benefit I see in trying alter behaviour in either group is to improve a person's happiness. Our young person is desperate to make friends - so we try to explain behaviours that might help. Ideally, other people would make an effort for a person unlike themselves, but it's not going to happen, so the option then is to try strategies to align. In the end whoever is the needier person has to consider how to achieve what they most want.

100% identify and agree with OP.  Source of problem is social environment. 

I think most people feel the need to gauge what others want to hear and deliver desired response out of fear of being rejected or disapproved.

Or they need to gauge what is most advantageous for them to say at this particular moment because they really need a particular outcome and can t afford to speak their mind. fear of consequences. Manipulation as survival tactic.

And all the other ugly NT Behaviors witnessed in schools and some workplaces. Bullying - better participate or you might be bullied yourself if you opt out. Backstabbing and disloyalty: you have to do whatever it takes to be safe. switch sides, lie, but don t risk being left out. 

Essentially, fear based behaviors of needy and insecure people-sheeple.

Deep rooted feeling of having safety in numbers. don't be left out, do what you need to belong, or you ll be dead in no time if you dare separating from the group. Ancient times dominate their minds, but it becomes our problem, because we are a minority.

there is no physical danger in being your own person, but rituals remain. and it takes a degree of intelligence to see meaninglessness of those behaviours in modern times. more cerebral people see it straight away and can t fathom participating in pointless activities. others participate but realize what s happening and resent it.

majority doesn t realize anything, just do what instinct tell them. automatic behaviour, like indoor cats and dogs that never been outside still perform digging motions on hard floors.  it s a serious business to them, but pointless and amusing to humans. And would be problematic if they expected us to participate. 

80% of people ( 80/20 rule, indont claim to know the real  numbers ) can t think independently or be their own person.

before learning about "AS" I thought there must be a real independent person hidden under that fake social crust. I thought they might come out of their shell when/if the person achieves some degree of personal growth. But none of that is my business and until then I just minimize interaction with those "not yet there" people, since they are of little interest, and select my own people as much as possible.

individual people ( what is apparently called " on the spectrum") vs "people-ants" that only look like individuals but possess a collective mind instead of their own.

Actually, ant-people aka NT are trying to move further apart from each other and break out of their collective mind. They look down on those who progressed less ( " backward cultures", " primitive societies")  but also pathologise those who are further in this separation (" asperger's disorder") 

it must be convenient and reassuring to declare your own position on this scale as "healthy, normal and desirable" and declare everything on one side "backward" and everything on the other side "disorder". Only problem is: it is not science, it is dogma.

and then AS is not a disorder but more of a blasphemy type "offense". Either we declare you "abnormal" and thus diminish but tolerate you... if you don't get diminished by a diagnostic label, you will be punished for non-compliance and difference. even if you are completely harmless. that is the path of "undiagnosed" people.

There are a lot of different themes all mixed together here:

1 direct vs indirect language/metaphor

2 behaving tactfully (the purpose of which is to encourage bonding, minimise conflict and increase co-operation)

3 a mismatch between those on the spectrum and NTs - reading and interpreting

4 a general propensity among a proportion of people to be unreliable and impolite

I see a style of black and white thinking among some ASD people which categorises tactfulness as dishonesty. However, in our household if we said "that really doesn't suit you" there would be merry hell with our ASD young person!

Some interactions require different styles of communication in order to achieve an outcome. Like negotiating the best price for something.

Although I am a NT, I can see the frustration in these things from observing our own family member.

Interested to know what people think the benefits of ASD are...

Thank you for posting this alternative viewpoint.

This is an interesting thread which got me thinking about how neuro-typicals have influenced my life. 

Let's start with childhood. Many NT kids I knew at school were boisterous and noisy, lacked any loyalty,  were jealous of others, teased and fought others for fun, were competitive to the point of nastiness, and lied as a matter of course without seeming to feel any guilt. I was forced to adapt my behaviour to try to stop the nastiest ones bullying me (although that still happened in my teens). I was made to feel like a loser when I was one of the last to be picked in team games, and made to feel like a freak or "teacher's pet" when I actually demonstrated skills in creative writing or music at school. I've always had a strong sense of fairness and justice, virtually no feelings of jealousy, and a dislike of loud noise, competitiveness, deception, teasing and disloyalty. When I got stomach aches every morning before school at 7 or 8, the family doctor concluded I was jealous of my baby sister staying at home with our mother, which couldn't have been further from the truth - I was terrified of the other kids and wanted a safe place to be, not my mother - I would have been just as happy sitting on my own in an empty field with some books to read.

As an adult, I've often been puzzled as to why some people are so unpredictable - I think they're on my side and then they unfairly blame me for something or let me down, without appearing to care that I'm upset, making me feel like I'm weak and stupid.

I've been lucky in that my husband is also on the spectrum and my best friend also has AS traits - they're the only people I completely trust, who I know won't lie to me, who will always be there at the time we arrange, who share my dislikes and my sense of justice. I love to take my husband when I go clothes shopping as I know he'll always be honest about what suits me and help me pick things that I look really nice in.

I feel a bit bad about saying this, as I do now have some lovely NT colleagues who are really caring and understanding, but I still can't identify with them the same way.

I find the same thing. I've often been labelled as a "troublemaker" simply because I call a spade a spade. People don't like to hear the truth, or at least that's what I've found. Even with simple things like "does this suit me?".

Dating is another area that annoys me, all these stupid "games" we're expected to play. I stopped dating years ago because of this daft expectation to play by rules that are not fixed and change with the wind!

Yes! I too feel worn out & I wish people would say what they mean clearly & directly.  

A lot of the time they don't seam to care or be very genuine, but as they say the right words in the right order at the right time then that is acceptable to others.  Where as I mean well and say it in the wrong way and thats not O.k.

I have to work really hard to interact with people & make so much effort trying to fit in. It would be nice for a NT to make as much effort with me. But then my difference is not understood and so I dont see how it will be possible.

I remember reading this quote from Tony Attwood he says:-

"You don't suffer from Asperger's you suffer from other people.' (Suffering is) only in the mirror of other poeple who see our uniqueness as a flaw. That's because they're the majority.

Maybe someday being Neuro-typical will be a diagnosis: 'Oh you poor things they have less focus and no special interests and a pathological need to socialise -maybe they need a support group.'

Since my diagnosis. My mum is experimenting with being more direct with me.  its great!!!  I got a new top recently (sorry this is a really girly example) I asked for her opinion if it suited me and she said it didnt suit me. I really appreciated her honesty. I wanted to know if it suited me or not, that is why I asked her. Apparently NT's would say 'yes it suits you' even if it doesnt. thats lying! I would much prefer honesty. 

Another example. My husbands friend recently offered to lend him a DVD of a film he has no interest in whatsoever, but he agreed to watch it so that he could bond with his friend. now he actually has to sit through it so he can discuss it afterwards, even though he doesnt like it! this is called 'bonding' but how can that be a genuine friendship? I am so confused. It seams to me that NT's get themselves into social knots just as much as I do.

Thankyou Johnsb for sharing NVC system. that sounds very interesting.