social interaction and small talk - why don't we learn?

Because the rules are not at all simple. It is a lot to remember whilst trying to do it at the same time. Many of us have such busy inner monologues, thinking about rules and speaking at the same time is a challenge, not to mention also processing what the other person is saying and thinking of a response at the same rime. The anxiety about is also very high which makes it more challenging. Not to mention it's purpose seems completely pointless so my motivation to master it probably isn't that high if I'm honest. 

I'll throw a question back to you. Do you think autistic people should always be learning, as you put it , basic skills to fit in more with the neurotypical world? Or do you think that neurotypical people should be meeting us in the middle and learning to communicate the way we do?

Expecto_Patronum said:

Do you think autistic people should always be learning, as you put it , basic skills to fit in more with the neurotypical world? Or do you think that neurotypical people should be meeting us in the middle and learning to communicate the way we do?

I look at it from the perspective of what people here keep saying about wanting to have friends, wanting to fit in, wanting to seem "normal".

For context, about 1 in 50 people are autistic and I would estimate about half have social interaction issues (this is just a guestimate), so about 1 in 100 struggle with this.

If you want to engage with others socially but don't know how then do you as the 1 person in a group of 100 expect the other 99 to change and adapt in order to make it easier for you? This seems both unreasonable and unrealistic when you look at it from a numbers perspective.

So should 1 make a lot of effort or should 99 make a reasonable effort?

Expecto_Patronum said:

the rules are not at all simple.

They actually are pretty simple, but it is having the capacity to consider them when under the stress of a social interaction that is difficult.

I find that expectation of so many to change for our benefit an interesting issue, hence why I started the thread to hear opinions.

The rules may seem simple to you but to me they do not. They are not like a rule in maths that I can apply and there are also the subtleties of body language and language that can be taken literally to further complicate matters. Unless you can tell me exactly how long my response should be, exactly how long the interaction should be, exactly how many questions I should ask in response etc then I will have a constant monologue over the top saying you're doing it wrong, you should be making eye contact, they'll think your weird, you've not asked enough questions, you've asked too many questions. What is simple to one person can be hugely challenging to another. 

Yes I would like more of a social life but I'd like a social life that I enjoy and feel comfortable in. I can't stand small talk and it makes me feel extremely uncomfortable. I will do the polite answers but I would try to get out of the small talk as quickly as possible. If I know the person I tend to have default topics that I know I'm comfortable talking about and are somewhat of interest to them and so I will use that. This tends to get me through but can get me the autistic reputation of only ever talks about the same things.

I did say meet in the middle. I'm not expecting them to complete adapt for me and I do nothing. But I don't think I should have to mask more than I already do for everyone else's benefit either.

I think you may have misinterpreted what I'm saying. I don't think NTs should have to do it by law. I'm not going to tell NTs that I refuse to communicate their way. I was just trying to make a point that I don't think it should always be autistic people being expected to fit in with the NT expected behaviour when it makes the uncomfortable just because we're the minority.

I just think a bit of consideration goes a long way. I'd like a world where I could just say actually I find small talk a bit difficult, would you mind if we skipped that part and got straight to the point. That kind of thing. At the moment I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that, I think it would be perceived as rude.

Again I think Out of Sight has probably made my own point better than I did.

Obviously different individuals may require specific accommodations, but what I’ve been discussing at work is simply that people need to be understanding of each other. If someone tells you they need to do x (eg wear headphones) or can’t do y (eg go to the pub) just be understanding, believe them, don’t be a d*ck about it. 

That’s how we should treat everyone regardless of conditions or disabilities.

We’ve always adapted to people’s personalities and strengths and weaknesses, this is no different.

I do understand your 99 vs 1 point. That is the reality we’ve lived all our lives and, realistically, need to deal with now. But we shouldn’t have to and I do get a sense that things are starting to change.

Expecto_Patronum said:

I certainly would not be bullying anyone to do anything. But I don't think learning about the experiences of others is at all unreasonable either.

If you want to make it an equality issue and need to make NTs learn about us and implement communication considerations then you are effectively bullying them to change behaviour under threat of disability laws.

I think a paced process of informing the public and playing to their better nature is the most effective way to stop us being seen as a burdon on them to accommodate. Positive media role models, more coverage of explaining out challenges and the increased acceptance of its existance is the best way.

That is just my take on it though

Expecto_Patronum said:

I certainly would not be bullying anyone to do anything. But I don't think learning about the experiences of others is at all unreasonable either.

If you want to make it an equality issue and need to make NTs learn about us and implement communication considerations then you are effectively bullying them to change behaviour under threat of disability laws.

I think a paced process of informing the public and playing to their better nature is the most effective way to stop us being seen as a burdon on them to accommodate. Positive media role models, more coverage of explaining out challenges and the increased acceptance of its existance is the best way.

That is just my take on it though

I think you may have misinterpreted what I'm saying. I don't think NTs should have to do it by law. I'm not going to tell NTs that I refuse to communicate their way. I was just trying to make a point that I don't think it should always be autistic people being expected to fit in with the NT expected behaviour when it makes the uncomfortable just because we're the minority.

I just think a bit of consideration goes a long way. I'd like a world where I could just say actually I find small talk a bit difficult, would you mind if we skipped that part and got straight to the point. That kind of thing. At the moment I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that, I think it would be perceived as rude.

Again I think Out of Sight has probably made my own point better than I did.