maybe one explanation for autistic people being gaslighted by neurotypicals

I would be interested in hearing what her version of this memory was as it is such a vivid picture…. What was her perspective?

yes, understood

In any situation where economic pressures increase prejudice increases too

Effects of Prejudice | Research Starters | EBSCO Research

so increased mental health pressures on autistic people 

increased prejudice because of how that effects us

all spirals somewhat 

to bring our conversation back to the original thread pietro_21 just when society needs people who see it like it is and tell it like it is they are increasingly rejected...

I didn't even l know I was autistic until 6 months ago. At the same time I don't expect much now, I have not been employed by a neuro typical workplace for over ten years ago. Most decent self aware firms acknowledge they are failing in their DEI schemes. I don't seem to have much of a problem making friends with decent people. Its just in team environments I am singled out by the firing squad. So my injustice at not being welcomed even for my visual diversity to others upsets me, because I cannot understand their point of view (or predetermined dislike of me) and I would never treat anyone like that.

It feels like the emperors new clothes to me because I see what they are doing. I just feel like with all the souless media its miserable and aimed to put us back to sleep. The games up as far as I am concerned. There has been a lot of killing of livelyhoods (and [spoiler alert] probably lives) going on. 

And all to make sure little Jonny gets his top job and little Veruca gets the husband she wants.

Agreed, in this instance i am suggesting that for the sort of person described above some form of redress by ridicule and humour might "put then in their place" and prove cathartic for the people suffering by them.

I guess the tricky thing is that a joke that starts "My mother-in-law..." can quickly become offensive to all mother-in -laws.

I have to acknowledge that i also play things to my advantage - e.g intelligence gets me into places and jobs that if I wasn't intelligent then... It's part of human diversity.  Jobs that need intelligence need intelligent people to fill them.

This will be a rash thing to say on this website to say however - some jobs need social communication skills - ironically the one I have had for most of my adult life...  Perhaps I have unfairly filled it from someone better suited than me.  But then I do a good job anyway..

The logical thing I think is for satisfying jobs to be identified that are ideal for autistic people in society at all levels for us to have and enjoy fair and reasonable progression in.

Logically there ought to be similar autism specific health care, housing and social activities etc.

Oh sh1t i am describing some sort of autistic apartheid! 

Anyway, at present the only way I can imagine that we get this is via doing it ourselves...

I also acknowledge that what if I was autistic and I wasn't lucky enough to be born into a relatively affluent part of human society where I have access to health care and support networks such as there are?

I wonder how autistic people without the same sort of luck as me get on.

So whilst there's a big bit of me that is p!ssed off about injustice I also have to remember there are lots worse off than me.  It makes me feel guilty about being so righteous in my personal indignation and do my best to support others who need help.

For this reason I try to aim my personal ire at those whose wealth is greater than mine (in a variety of ways) and don't treat me fairly.  I regularly fail in this tho'.

Very true, I remember hearing that a girl who was so self centered and who used to be particularly vile to me was going to study to become a nurse! I couldn't imagine a person worse suited to the job of caring of others.

When my kids were teenagers and we went to see my parents when they lived in Eastbourne, we'd get on the bus to go to the beach and lots of older people were really coomplimentary about how well mannered my kids were, that they'd give their seat up and help people with thier bags etc. On the way, we'd be stood at the bus stop waiting to go home and when the bus pulled up, almost out of nowhere elderly people often women would appear from nowhere and push, shove and elbow my kids out of the way whilst muttering about how they didn't survive the blitz to not be able to get on a bus.

So I dont' think it's about subconciously picking up an ND but just plain rudeness. I tell this story to people every time I hear someone going on about how young people today have no respect. They do have respect, but they expect to be shown it too and treated properly, not pushed aside like garbage.

I do think that a lot of people are bullies and are drawn towards professions where they have power over others, whether this is teaching, the police, military and medicine. These are exactly the sort of people who should never be allowed to have positions of responsibility because they become tin pot hitlers.

NTs view each other as their support system, truly independent thinking is their Achilles heal

veiling the truth, exactly

I remember the days when "comedians" told a constant stream of "!jokes" about mothers in law, dolly birds and black people, I didn't find it funny then and I don't now either.

I have a similar take, I wouldn't say I am cynical when people are willing to engage. A lot of experiences that have lead to my personal beliefs have been unprovoked.

I think when enough views are shared a collective understanding is that a position taken is wrong and possibly that the law is being broken.

In this case I feel like what is happening is a deliberate l undermining of certain types of human being. You can say this is part of human nature. But we are civilised suposedly. Success shouldn't have to be to someone else's detriment.  These are simple live and let live concepts, but might be diffucult for some to understand.

Interviews themselves are biased and discriminatory, if they like you and you have the 'skills and experience' they pick you to be on the team. NT people decide their every career move because the transitions are made easier for them by likeminded agencies.

My realisation now is how do I know if a friendship is genuine if I am the one having to manufucture and sustain eveyry part of it. I receive no input and people expect to be able to keep giving. This is a different discussion, but its something that highlighted to me that there are 

Exactly (your last comments) people play everything to their advantage (percieved nepotism/bias/entitlement),it can people to lower their moral code. Or they may not even be aware of a bigger picture.  If everyone else is doing it (and getting away with it) its ok. No its not.

Thanks for the long list. I have reduced this down to 10 that my managers have did to me at work.

with all this gas no wonder there are global warming problems!

here's a problem tho' I read this list and see myself having done the same things...

oh sh1t something else to hate myself about... 

There was a period when mother-in-law jokes were not politically incorrect.

If I wasn't so desperately keen not to hurt other people I would say "those were the days"!

"Unpicking what modern humans need to learn quickly from how things have always been done is an enigma."

Flawed systems instead of rethinking?  I totally agree

I would be one of those suggesting that what has always been this way and the reason being that humans are involved in this so what should we expect...

However I must admit that my bias against humanity is pretty strong...  Not much of a team player it seems or maybe I have just had enough of not being accepted as part of the team... But then if I'm not a team player maybe they are right to not want me in the team...

Oh flip there's no definitive answer to that except the evidence of what I display in the here and now from here on in and what I experience from others.

The thing is about how much "locus of control" one has over it...

Multi-billionaire autist? Not a problem...

Lucky and wealthy enough to be able to notice the problem but not lucky and wealthy enough to do something about it...  problem...

I have experience of this with my mother in law. I had always considered her to be quite a dishonest person as I often heard her giving versions of events that I knew for a fact to be completely untrue. The versions she gives are, of course, always weighted in her favour and used to justify her own actions. I did eventually come to the conclusion that it was actually not out and out lying in the strictest sense of the word because it became clear that she did, in a way, believe the version she gave. This is where the cognitive dissonance kicked in because the incorrect memory would always be part of making her the victim or hero of the story. Now, I know she had a relatively difficult childhood and still suffers the consequences of that, many, many years later. So, she has built this shield around herself to protect her from criticism. This is OK to a degree, but when it means that others in her orbit are negatively impacted, it becomes an issue and is a large part of the reason that I try to have as little to do with her as possible. Correcting her version of events never ends well so, on the whole, I let little things go. Other, bigger things though, when they impact on others, I don't let go and she doesn't like it one little bit. Mainly I assume, because she knows deep down that she is wrong and hates the illusion she is trying to cast, being shattered by facts. My wife pretty much lets her get away with most of the untruths, only very occasionally calling her out, so there is a lot of enabling going on. I often remind my wife, when she tells me something her mother has said, that just because she said it, doesn't make it true. I have heard so much untruth from her now that I have learnt to take every single thing she says with an extremely large pinch of salt.

Thanks. I can tell you have a sense of humour. There are so many facets to this. I do think nt people I can identify have little imagination of their own and ability to think outside the box. The workaround they have found for this is to either steal ideas and jobs, or huddle together as a group and use force to do the same.

To some degree I have felt heavy handed pressure directed against me when in these environments.I don’t allow myself to feel victimised but this causes me anxiety as being the number one  ‘unsolvable’ problem in my world. However it frustrates me that not enough people see or do anything about it. 

I have run it through numerous supposedly intelligent ai primes they all rationalise it as normal.

It needs to be treated no differently to any other kind of discrimination. In terms of children and young workers I believe bullying can have a detrimental affect on their outlook which can affect their whole lives leading them to blame themselves. If you asked me what do I think is the number one reason for introverted or nd people committing suicide this would be it.

It scares me a bit because we have limited time on the planet and If you view life chances in terms of time then these people are wasting time, yours and mine. We can’t see round corners and I believe nd have and are being blinkered in lots of ways, morally and legally.

We are all preconditioned from birth and the moment we start to learn. I also question to what degree we are all preconditioned to subscribe to the ‘normal’’ world (as NTS are clearly in control of the media) and how much this is interfered with, or necessary. If you use mindfulness you can get a much clearer on this. I don’t watch tv and I have noticed another world- similar I suppose to the world in John Carpenters ‘They Live’.

this isn’t me thinking to myself people are getting in my way, this is me observing oh my god that is wilful complicity on a mass scale. Manipulate andI don’t go into the reasons for hate or ignorance if it is directed at me. I keep my respect for other people in check so I know it is not justified in most cases and people are doing it to gratify themselves. I have played the office game but they didn’t want me in it, so I am not going to pander or degrade myself.

Mostly how I have felt about this as an adult is that. If you exclude potential competitors entry to the game there is no real competion. This is what is happening, workplace, media, public life its affected everything its why the world is mediocre. Someone might say its always been this way or these things run in cycles. Really the societal problems now are because we have continued with flawed systems, instead of rethinking.

Unpicking what modern humans need to learn quickly from how things have always been done is an enigma.

We should be looking for the truth not building on lies.

Just had to add this from the book 'How to handle Neurotypicals'

TRUTH! Its the secret Achilles heel of being autistic... we've never fit in, and so go to great lengths to be people-pleasers to fit in, and in the end, we're miserable for it. If there's one thing of value that's come from my formal diagnosis is that I see this SO CLEARLY now.  I have put boundaries up in my life now, and I am so much happier. I tell people all the time DO NOT LEAVE THE KEYS TO YOUR HAPPINESS IN SOMEONE ELSE'S POCKET. 

Gaslighting is real folks. Its taught to NT's and passed down... how to be manipulators... how to speak through both sides of their mouth... How to play the victim.  How to flip the script. I've journaled for years about this and now have no problem calling it out when I see it.

Learn to recognize your own needs and assert yourself in relationships and interactions. Communicate your boundaries clearly and without guilt. By valuing and respecting yourself, you send a powerful message that gaslighting (which is emotional abuse) will not be tolerated. There's a Jefferson Fisher Podcast - How to respond to Gaslighting that's a great start.

Not sure if you have a gaslighter in your life? Here's the list:

50 traits of gaslighting:

1. You often make them doubt their perceptions of reality. 
2. You dismiss their feelings as overly emotional or irrational. 
3. You frequently deny things you've said or done in the past. 
4. You tell them they're imagining things when they express a concern. 
5. You minimize their experiences by saying they're not a big deal. 
6. You change the topic whenever they bring up an issue. 
7. You keep them from talking to friends or family about your relationship. 
8. You accuse them of being too sensitive when they voice their feelings. 
9. You give them the silent treatment to manipulate them. 
10. You make them feel guilty for standing up for themselves. 
11. You often use sarcasm or jokes at their expense. 
12. You twist their words to make it seem like they said something different. 
13. You repeatedly tell them they're wrong about things they remember clearly. 
14. You blame them for problems in your relationship that aren't their fault. 
15. You refuse to acknowledge or apologize for your mistakes. 
16. You make them feel responsible for your emotional state. 
17. You tell them they're lucky to be with you implying they're not good enough. 
18. You invalidate their thoughts making them feel inferior. 
19. You frequently keep things in a state of confusion to maintain control. 
20. You shift the blame onto them when issues arise. 
21. You question their memory of events that are clearly defined. 
22. You use love as a tactic to control their behavior, like saying, if you loved me, you would... 
23. You withhold affection or approval to punish them. 
24. You make them feel like they owe you something emotionally. 
25. You frequently compare them unfavorably to others. 
26. You create a sense of dependency by undermining their confidence. 
27. You manipulate conversations to make them feel defensive. 
28. You gift them items but use the gesture as a means to keep them obligated to you. 
29. You isolate them from their support system. 
30. You insist that they are the problem even when it's clearly you. 
31. You present yourself as the victim when they address your behavior. 
32. You refuse to acknowledge their achievements or successes. 
33. You engage in behaviors that confuse them and then deny them. 
34. You provoke them into arguments and then accuse them of being argumentative. 
35. You threaten to leave or withhold love during conflicts. 
36. You keep essential information from them to create imbalance. 
37. You encourage them to question their sanity or judgment. 
38. You sulk or pout if you don't get your way. 
39. You tell them they should be grateful for what they have in the relationship. 
40. You strategically forget important dates or events that matter to them. 
41. You suggest they see a therapist to imply they're the one with issues. 
42. You frequently interrupt or talk over them during discussions. 
43. You engage in double standards when it comes to your behaviors. 
44. You assume you know what's best for them without listening. 
45. You paint a perfect picture of yourself to others while vilifying them. 
46. You gaslight them about their aspirations or dreams. 
47. You impose your needs over theirs, disregarding what they want. 
48. You tell them they're exaggerating or overreacting perpetually. 
49. You secretly set them up for failure and then blame them for falling short. 
50. You refuse to show vulnerability, always maintaining a facade of control. 

Awesome! I am a written-visual learner. Journaling is like rem-sleep for me. If I write down events when they happen, and then look at what I've written... its committed to memory. Otherwise, most events in my life pass by like scenery through a car window. It has to be written though. Not sure why my mind holds so much better that way. 

I use a recorder now for many things, and whisper-speech-to-text (google it) convert them all to text notes every few days.

As a kid  in school I would memorize pages at a time.... memorize page 1, repeat it, memorize page 2, repeat 1, repeat 2, memorize page 3, repeat 1, repeat 2, repeat 3. Much like playing the word-chain games as a kid in the car, but with pages of text instead. And yes, if I got panic'd or bullied... poof... there goes the chain of pages in my head.