maybe one explanation for autistic people being gaslighted by neurotypicals

There was a period when mother-in-law jokes were not politically incorrect.

If I wasn't so desperately keen not to hurt other people I would say "those were the days"!

"Unpicking what modern humans need to learn quickly from how things have always been done is an enigma."

Flawed systems instead of rethinking?  I totally agree

I would be one of those suggesting that what has always been this way and the reason being that humans are involved in this so what should we expect...

However I must admit that my bias against humanity is pretty strong...  Not much of a team player it seems or maybe I have just had enough of not being accepted as part of the team... But then if I'm not a team player maybe they are right to not want me in the team...

Oh flip there's no definitive answer to that except the evidence of what I display in the here and now from here on in and what I experience from others.

The thing is about how much "locus of control" one has over it...

Multi-billionaire autist? Not a problem...

Lucky and wealthy enough to be able to notice the problem but not lucky and wealthy enough to do something about it...  problem...

I have experience of this with my mother in law. I had always considered her to be quite a dishonest person as I often heard her giving versions of events that I knew for a fact to be completely untrue. The versions she gives are, of course, always weighted in her favour and used to justify her own actions. I did eventually come to the conclusion that it was actually not out and out lying in the strictest sense of the word because it became clear that she did, in a way, believe the version she gave. This is where the cognitive dissonance kicked in because the incorrect memory would always be part of making her the victim or hero of the story. Now, I know she had a relatively difficult childhood and still suffers the consequences of that, many, many years later. So, she has built this shield around herself to protect her from criticism. This is OK to a degree, but when it means that others in her orbit are negatively impacted, it becomes an issue and is a large part of the reason that I try to have as little to do with her as possible. Correcting her version of events never ends well so, on the whole, I let little things go. Other, bigger things though, when they impact on others, I don't let go and she doesn't like it one little bit. Mainly I assume, because she knows deep down that she is wrong and hates the illusion she is trying to cast, being shattered by facts. My wife pretty much lets her get away with most of the untruths, only very occasionally calling her out, so there is a lot of enabling going on. I often remind my wife, when she tells me something her mother has said, that just because she said it, doesn't make it true. I have heard so much untruth from her now that I have learnt to take every single thing she says with an extremely large pinch of salt.

Thanks. I can tell you have a sense of humour. There are so many facets to this. I do think nt people I can identify have little imagination of their own and ability to think outside the box. The workaround they have found for this is to either steal ideas and jobs, or huddle together as a group and use force to do the same.

To some degree I have felt heavy handed pressure directed against me when in these environments.I don’t allow myself to feel victimised but this causes me anxiety as being the number one  ‘unsolvable’ problem in my world. However it frustrates me that not enough people see or do anything about it. 

I have run it through numerous supposedly intelligent ai primes they all rationalise it as normal.

It needs to be treated no differently to any other kind of discrimination. In terms of children and young workers I believe bullying can have a detrimental affect on their outlook which can affect their whole lives leading them to blame themselves. If you asked me what do I think is the number one reason for introverted or nd people committing suicide this would be it.

It scares me a bit because we have limited time on the planet and If you view life chances in terms of time then these people are wasting time, yours and mine. We can’t see round corners and I believe nd have and are being blinkered in lots of ways, morally and legally.

We are all preconditioned from birth and the moment we start to learn. I also question to what degree we are all preconditioned to subscribe to the ‘normal’’ world (as NTS are clearly in control of the media) and how much this is interfered with, or necessary. If you use mindfulness you can get a much clearer on this. I don’t watch tv and I have noticed another world- similar I suppose to the world in John Carpenters ‘They Live’.

this isn’t me thinking to myself people are getting in my way, this is me observing oh my god that is wilful complicity on a mass scale. Manipulate andI don’t go into the reasons for hate or ignorance if it is directed at me. I keep my respect for other people in check so I know it is not justified in most cases and people are doing it to gratify themselves. I have played the office game but they didn’t want me in it, so I am not going to pander or degrade myself.

Mostly how I have felt about this as an adult is that. If you exclude potential competitors entry to the game there is no real competion. This is what is happening, workplace, media, public life its affected everything its why the world is mediocre. Someone might say its always been this way or these things run in cycles. Really the societal problems now are because we have continued with flawed systems, instead of rethinking.

Unpicking what modern humans need to learn quickly from how things have always been done is an enigma.

We should be looking for the truth not building on lies.

Just had to add this from the book 'How to handle Neurotypicals'

TRUTH! Its the secret Achilles heel of being autistic... we've never fit in, and so go to great lengths to be people-pleasers to fit in, and in the end, we're miserable for it. If there's one thing of value that's come from my formal diagnosis is that I see this SO CLEARLY now.  I have put boundaries up in my life now, and I am so much happier. I tell people all the time DO NOT LEAVE THE KEYS TO YOUR HAPPINESS IN SOMEONE ELSE'S POCKET. 

Gaslighting is real folks. Its taught to NT's and passed down... how to be manipulators... how to speak through both sides of their mouth... How to play the victim.  How to flip the script. I've journaled for years about this and now have no problem calling it out when I see it.

Learn to recognize your own needs and assert yourself in relationships and interactions. Communicate your boundaries clearly and without guilt. By valuing and respecting yourself, you send a powerful message that gaslighting (which is emotional abuse) will not be tolerated. There's a Jefferson Fisher Podcast - How to respond to Gaslighting that's a great start.

Not sure if you have a gaslighter in your life? Here's the list:

50 traits of gaslighting:

1. You often make them doubt their perceptions of reality. 
2. You dismiss their feelings as overly emotional or irrational. 
3. You frequently deny things you've said or done in the past. 
4. You tell them they're imagining things when they express a concern. 
5. You minimize their experiences by saying they're not a big deal. 
6. You change the topic whenever they bring up an issue. 
7. You keep them from talking to friends or family about your relationship. 
8. You accuse them of being too sensitive when they voice their feelings. 
9. You give them the silent treatment to manipulate them. 
10. You make them feel guilty for standing up for themselves. 
11. You often use sarcasm or jokes at their expense. 
12. You twist their words to make it seem like they said something different. 
13. You repeatedly tell them they're wrong about things they remember clearly. 
14. You blame them for problems in your relationship that aren't their fault. 
15. You refuse to acknowledge or apologize for your mistakes. 
16. You make them feel responsible for your emotional state. 
17. You tell them they're lucky to be with you implying they're not good enough. 
18. You invalidate their thoughts making them feel inferior. 
19. You frequently keep things in a state of confusion to maintain control. 
20. You shift the blame onto them when issues arise. 
21. You question their memory of events that are clearly defined. 
22. You use love as a tactic to control their behavior, like saying, if you loved me, you would... 
23. You withhold affection or approval to punish them. 
24. You make them feel like they owe you something emotionally. 
25. You frequently compare them unfavorably to others. 
26. You create a sense of dependency by undermining their confidence. 
27. You manipulate conversations to make them feel defensive. 
28. You gift them items but use the gesture as a means to keep them obligated to you. 
29. You isolate them from their support system. 
30. You insist that they are the problem even when it's clearly you. 
31. You present yourself as the victim when they address your behavior. 
32. You refuse to acknowledge their achievements or successes. 
33. You engage in behaviors that confuse them and then deny them. 
34. You provoke them into arguments and then accuse them of being argumentative. 
35. You threaten to leave or withhold love during conflicts. 
36. You keep essential information from them to create imbalance. 
37. You encourage them to question their sanity or judgment. 
38. You sulk or pout if you don't get your way. 
39. You tell them they should be grateful for what they have in the relationship. 
40. You strategically forget important dates or events that matter to them. 
41. You suggest they see a therapist to imply they're the one with issues. 
42. You frequently interrupt or talk over them during discussions. 
43. You engage in double standards when it comes to your behaviors. 
44. You assume you know what's best for them without listening. 
45. You paint a perfect picture of yourself to others while vilifying them. 
46. You gaslight them about their aspirations or dreams. 
47. You impose your needs over theirs, disregarding what they want. 
48. You tell them they're exaggerating or overreacting perpetually. 
49. You secretly set them up for failure and then blame them for falling short. 
50. You refuse to show vulnerability, always maintaining a facade of control. 

Awesome! I am a written-visual learner. Journaling is like rem-sleep for me. If I write down events when they happen, and then look at what I've written... its committed to memory. Otherwise, most events in my life pass by like scenery through a car window. It has to be written though. Not sure why my mind holds so much better that way. 

I use a recorder now for many things, and whisper-speech-to-text (google it) convert them all to text notes every few days.

As a kid  in school I would memorize pages at a time.... memorize page 1, repeat it, memorize page 2, repeat 1, repeat 2, memorize page 3, repeat 1, repeat 2, repeat 3. Much like playing the word-chain games as a kid in the car, but with pages of text instead. And yes, if I got panic'd or bullied... poof... there goes the chain of pages in my head.

I think NT's use emotion as a lossy-compression for events. They can't get anywhere close to remembering the actual details, but will infer them from how they felt about the event, which they'll hold onto with crystal clarity for decades.

Yeh they'll just assume this and that and not really take how you feel on board or try and help you. Makes me sad  

You’re right on it, they hate to look bad:)! The whole thing is a house of cards a lot of people have not been working hard.

If you scale up the incompetence through its obvious big companies have actually been failing, this is what I reported to Hmrc two years ago and they refunded several year of pension. They never told me what happened with the employers though. I knew they were breaking the law both in their treatment and not paying me correctly.

I have to sleep but I have a list of things to look out for I will post at some point.

nice to chat Cinnabar

I figure that what you are saying is that people have conspired against you pietro_21  

I too have had this sense.

The tricky thing is as you suggest it is hard to prove their complicity.

It's also hard to know if one is being paranoid,or  gaslighted as being autistic potentially one might not have the tools to know it is taking place!!

I suspect it is simple prejudice rather than a deliberate personal vendetta with me.  I haven't been that nasty to people (as far as I'm aware!)

I  have been enough of a thorn in the side of plenty of neurotypical people by the nature if my not reining myself in when I see something that I think is wrong or unfair.  So I could be a potentially be a target of conspiracy.  Hehe - how would I know none of them talk to me openly anyway because I don't/can't play the game the way they want/expect me to.

Also I know I've said things, say things that people have been offended by (that I only realise to have bee the case when I see their side of it after the fact)

If I go with the widely promoted model of autism challenges with communication, sensory overload, and social understanding are leading me to feelings of confusion or fear.

Or as you say most neurotypicals are all in it together colluding to be mediocre and watching society and the planet go to hell in a handcart and consider autistic people like me an annoyance and a nuisance...

I think being confused so much really helps us be clever!  

Well done on your achievements and as the dog Latin puts it "Non Illigitimi Carborundum!" :-)

Definately, I think if you work hard you can be seen as a threat as you show how productive a person can be, which perhaps makes them look bad?

The way I think of it is they share a brain, but are actually unfeeling. Some of these females have zero emotional intelligence. They care a lot about themselves and not others. Being in the workplace is a nightmare, if I behaved that way I would lose my job immediately. 

I am glad you/others see it too. I think mostly what I realised what that whole companies are underperforming because whole offices of people are basically pretending to be professional. This upset me because I always worked hard and did things well, I was basicaly manipulated and negated.

It like a huge wave of defeatism coming at us. 

I think there is something about a certain type of female -they can be particularly nasty to everyone who doesn't pander to them. Pattern recognition can help to see the ones to avoid, but in places like work if it's your manager especially, it can be inescapable I imagine.

I wish it didn't destroy so many lives, some of us are quite happy to do what we want to do without any fuss. I sometimes think it's like it's easy to kick the dog that doesn't bite back.

I have actually been doing some observational research on this, I am quite analytical. 

They prefer to force the situation into what they consider to be their favor as they cannot rationale how internalised nd behaviour is (its illegible to them).

I had an incident on a bus the otherday when I was waiting to get off and a middle aged '' woman was pushing me from behind, as I moved off she deliberately barged past me. I felt she identified that I was nd and did not like it. That kind of hostility is every day at any point. For young nd men/boys its always suprising when mature women do this. If I am completely honest I remember nursery workers and classroom assistants at primary school being verbally vicious. Its inherant and pervasive.

I think its amusing (if I didn't I woulnt be here) because I worked hard all the way through school and work and people were systematically trying to obstruct and mislead me. examples:

• Being told I wouldnt be able to take a levels or ever get to university - I now have a masters degree 
• Being criticised by teachers told I was ugly or stupid
• Having my work sabotaged in the office workplace
• Not being paid by employers (under contract) having cheques bounce, or having my national insurance paid
• Being gaslit by female managers and cooworkers

We all know what they are doing. Entire industries are underperforming at such a mediocre level, and workplaces are complicit. 

I am absolutely clear now people were obstructing me at every level of my education and career. Although I cannot prove there was complicity in each location I know these were not isolated events. The lack of openmindeness they have (like they all share the same brain) I don't let it shock me but it is an injustice when people behave that way and are not reprimanded.

I keep busting into laughter every time I look at your post. 

Absolutely brilliant.

this next reply comes with a warning as it involves cruelty to cats

however this springs to mind based on your reply TheCatWoman 

A study published back in 1970 showed that kittens brought up in a lab with only vertical lines couldn't see horizontal and vice versa.

"Brain development is clearly affected by early experiences and environmental factors rather than just genetics and there is clear evidence of brain plasticity – ‘the visual experience of these animals had modified their brain’ and therefore has serious perceptual consequences. The kittens’ visual cortex adjusts during development as a result of its visual experiences."

Blakemore and Cooper (1970) | Reference Library | Psychology | tutor2u

This sort of thing makes it pretty clear how important early life is for us all.  (although there s plenty of evidence that brain plasticity - literally changing one's mind, in many ways, is possible later on)

Hehe as for the stupid behaviour of those you encounter "I blame the parents" might be pretty close to the mark...

Don't people hate it when you're proved right? I tend to go blundering in where angels fear to tread, naming every elephant in the room, this is one reason why I'd never go into politics, I'm a diplomatic incedent waiting to happen, lol.

One of my standard responses to people who try and tell me I'm autistic because I've been vacinated is, 'yes dear you believe that if it makes you happy'. they usually tell me it dosen't make them happy, to which I respond by telling them to, 'stop believing it then!'. It's either that or find a really stupid question to ask them, like asking someone who believes the earth is flat, how come cats haven't knocked everything off the edge?

I'm afraid that with the terminally stupid I live up to my name and bat them around like a toy mouse, I can't help it, they just need winding up until they go away.

Gosh yes! I remember hearing that one years ago, and it’s true!

Which reminds me of people who drive around in their cars, safely cacooned and seat belts on, while the dog is sitting on the back seat with its head hanging out the window. I keep expecting to see canine heads lying by the side of the motorway. 

"I don’t think some of the staff really cared."

It is a sad truth that some people only care about themselves.

They aren't necessarily malicious but even so they cause damage 

A friend suggested to me that the most useful car safety device for some people would be to fit a dagger facing the driver in the middle of the steering wheel...