When the fun stops, Stop. A post prompted by Yellow Tree "melting down" and departing yesterday.

AuTriker said:

Debbie, please don't think that! I'm sure most of us women on here are in favour of women's rights and many of the men too!

Thank you.

I was feeling very alone until you posted this.

Iain said:

Thank you for a spirited discussion - I was wrong in thinking we were discussing the same aspect of the issue and apologise for any upset my approach caused.

Thank you too.

I'd like to leave this here if we can

Agreed - I think you are seeing things in terms of global balance while I am focussing locally. It would seem we are approaching the same subject from different angles so are getting our wires crossed.

I think we both agree that equality is the goal we are striving for.

Thank you for a spirited discussion - I was wrong in thinking we were discussing the same aspect of the issue and apologise for any upset my approach caused.

it's a faction of one

Debbie, please don't think that! I'm sure most of us women on here are in favour of women's rights and many of the men too!

But I think in the west, power is shifting (as it should) away from (only) men, and they can feel it and don't like it, some probably feel it has gone more than half way, while many women still feel it has not yet reached half way. And when those men are also in an unempowered and marginalised group (autistic) they may feel it worse. Or they may see it as a bad thing for various other reasons, because we see the world from different angles. I can't claim to know how anyone else actually thinks, just what my impressions are of how they seem to be thinking.

I do hope I have expressed myself clearly (I am starting to doubt it as I keep adding bits and confusing myself...) and not offended anyone of any gender! My intention is not to offend but to discuss and also to hope that Debbie can be persuaded not to go, or to hibernate for too long because she would be missed.

I am going to stop rewriting this post now because I need to either post it or not post it! Hope it's not the wrong decision...

Iain said:

Discrimination needs to be called out wherever it is present regardless of the big picture globally.

Of course it does!

I don't understand your point at all and I certainly don't understand how thinking about the power balance between men and women in the whole world means this:

Iain said:

That is like defending the *** genocide of the Jews becuase it was only happening in Germany at the time.

I think you completely misunderstand me actually.

I respect your wisdom and generally agree with you and value your input.

Amerantin (former member) explained to me what is happening in his own workplace with regard to the positive discrimination of women over men (and inappropriate) and this one instance in this one company I can see this is probably 'wrong'.

This wasn't the broad statement that was originally made however - an unqualified statement about power that I was responding to.

I'd like to leave this here if we can.

That's how my brain works and I won't apologise for not just thinking of 'Little England'

I'm not asking for an apology, just to respect a different groups experience - exactly what you are doing with your defence of womens rights,

All I will say is that when a member questions men having more power than women I can only think globally.

That is like defending the *** genocide of the Jews becuase it was only happening in Germany at the time. Discrimination needs to be called out wherever it is present regardless of the big picture globally.

Iain said:

Womens rights would fall into this category I believe without needing to be a part of an organisation or group.

I'm not quite sure why you are trying to prove that I am part of a faction but it's a faction of one now here on this forum and a timely reminder of why I am once again in retreat/leaving.

All I will say is that when a member questions men having more power than women I can only think globally.

That's how my brain works and I won't apologise for not just thinking of 'Little England'.

The meaning of FACTION is

www.merriam-webster.com/.../faction

- party spirit especially when marked by dissension

Womens rights would fall into this category I believe without needing to be a part of an organisation or group.

Iain said:

This was the faction that you are a part of,

The meaning of FACTION is a party or group (as within a government) that is often contentious or self-seeking : clique.

Absolutely not.

That doesn't express my life experience at all (which if you want, I will detail for you) ...

I've read 2 members in particular talk about society becoming more polarised now and factioned.

I'm no part of that

Hello Debbie, the thread in question was about the male perspective and we were discussing our experiences. Your response was a rather harsh one pointing out the inequalities suffered by women in Afganistan and Pakistan which was part of the polarisation I then referred to.

You are a fierce supporter of womens rights but I feel this has led you to have a rather one sided view which you will defend fiercly.

This was the faction that you are a part of, but it is not a criticism. This is a subject which has a need of much more attention than it currently gets and there are loads of changes still needed to bring true equality.

All I was asking for is not to cancel our experiences of inequality because of a different inequality you are standing up for.

There can be inequalities for men and for women in different areas at the same time. Both are deserving of being stood up against.

I Sperg said:

My main objection to "Woke" is the rabid intolerance it's adherents seem to present toward anyone who disagrees with them.

It seems to be qute polarising, and invasive,

These words of yours are what I find polarising and invasive, actually.

I have no idea about 'woke' - I have no idea about the 'lynch mob' mentioned in another post by another member.

I only know what I've felt was right all my life - to defend the vulnerable and marginalised in society.

I'm not a part of any faction or group.

I haven't watched TV for 25 years, haven't listened to the radio for a long period of time, very rarely read the news and keep myself as far away from these things as possible these days (this isn't true in the past).

I don't read any social media sites except photography one.

I have however when younger actively taken part in demonstrations, worked voluntarily for CND and collected money voluntarily for anti-cruelty animal charities etc.

So, I've been active but I am independently minded.

We once had a discussion on here where you said something and several people disagred with you.

You appeared to think that this was an organised thing - maybe the 'lynch mob' referred to by this other user.

I assured you that I rarely talk to others about these things on here - when in discussions by PM I talk about personal matters on the whole.

I've read 2 members in particular talk about society becoming more polarised now and factioned.

I'm no part of that and as it is you and I who disagree most now (all the others who disagreed with you having left the site) I would just like that to be clear.

If you say something I disagree with I challenge you if what you say hurts me (in a variety of ways).

All the time I can't refrain from challenging what others say when those views cause me grief I will refrain from participating here as I don't want the conflict to upset younger members of the community in particular.

Have you considered that the 1st sentence actually demonstrates 'rabid' (such a loaded word - demonstrating fanatisicm) intolerance itself ie towards your personal definition of 'woke'?

Because we all are autistic we expect everyone to agree. However, as the effects of autism varies from one individual to the next we are a heterogenous community which will always have different view points. We are not robots after all. Do we expect the neurotypical world to always agree?

TheCatWoman said:

I wonder how many people actually know what woke means and its origins?

I had to look this one up to be certain, but it is an evolving term without a fixed definition:

From Wikipedia:

Woke is a political slang adjective derived from African-American Vernacular English originally meaning alertness to racial prejudice and discrimination.
Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as racial injustice, sexism, and denial of LGBT rights.
Woke has also been used as shorthand for some ideas of the American Left involving identity politics and social justice, such as white privilege and reparations for slavery in the United States.

I think the context it was used in on the thread in question was in the social justice one, so seems bang on the money.

TheCatWoman said:

So the choice then becomes do I leave what I see as slurs, opinions that I disagree with etc unchallenged?

I get this - there are so many threads where I have found myself responding to something I saw as wrong, naive, incomplete or pointless and I always take a long pause before pressing the Reply button as a lot of the time it adds nothing constructive or helpful to the thread.

What we see in this forum seems to reflect what is going on in the world at large - there is an ever more intoletant, polarising and tribal mentality forming with flame wars becoming the norm.

While there are people involved I don't think this is ever likely to change mind you, is seems like human nature.

I'm not familiar with what happened with Yellow Tree because I disappeared for about a week. But I agree with a lot of what you have said I Sperg. In fact, the reason why I am not very active and often disappear is because it is my way of coping with this phenomenon. This forum can get a bit intense sometimes but I do the same everywhere - when it gets too much, I just silently go away.

I Sperg said:

I suggest, and would like help in the form of disagreement or agreement, that this is a facet of Autism.

I think it probably is a facet of autism.

Personally I am prone to black and white thinking and hold very rigid views. I have historically got into arguments a lot, including with people I would rather not be arguing with, and I get very frustrated when I feel misunderstood. Either I am not articulating myself properly or there is a mismatch in thinking methods, but I think there is also an inability to deal with other people being "wrong". I suspect a lot of this is true of many on the spectrum.

After decades of these kind of disagreements I just got to the point where I try to people please and avoid arguments as much as possible, and one method of doing that is to remove myself from conversation.

Sometimes I do still speak my mind, but I always seem to regret it. I self-censor a lot for that reason, or just avoid participating altogether.

I find that a lot of disagreements and hurt feelings that I have experienced tend to stem from misunderstandings. Language is imprecise and nuanced, but I tend to only find one meaning in what people say, and my own use of language also tends to be misunderstood often and malice assumed where there is none (perhaps from bluntness). My solution to that tends to be to over-explain because I'm afraid of people finding a hidden meaning I didn't intend.

I don't know of a good solution because people here will always have different opinions to each other. We should of course be kind and give each other the benefit of the doubt, not assume bad intent, and remember that it's OK to disagree. But it's inherently part of being autistic to have communication problems so I suspect it will always happen.

I Sperg said:

I have asked for a second opinion both from the wiser members of this site, and also the admins on occasion, (for about two years now), as to whether I make a net positive contribution to the site

I think you make a good contribution because I have liked reading your posts even if I haven't replied.

Good post.

(TBF there are a lot of good posts in this thread, it's possibly unfair to single one out, but that was my knee jerk reaction..) 

Time should teach us, if it doesn't, we're wasting it. 

I'm just sticking this in here as there are a number of points I wish to make inspired by many posters so none of this is particularly directed at anyone.

Being someone who has been accused of being woke, a snowflake, a guardian reading leftie and much much worse, certain things act as a trigger, they tell me that the person posting is going to be generally hostile to people like me and my beliefs and that the thread is not going to be a safe place for me to be in. So the choice then becomes do I leave what I see as slurs, opinions that I disagree with etc unchallenged? The easy answer is yes, don't go there run away and hide, find some other similar people to make a bubble with, but arn't these social and political bubbles a big part of the problem?  I make no applogy that many of my opinions are "woke", I wonder how many people actually know what woke means and its origins? I expect a certain amount of kickback to this, what I don't expect is abuse, sadly this is the case in many situations. It make me mentally "fort up" when replying to such posts, I know that I have to be extrememly careful or risk a pile on, threats and other nastiness. 

Many people don't know how to state a case for the things they believe in, they expect everybody to leave them alone and agree with them and get angry when challenged, even mildly and start hitting out. They shout, they repeat their opinion over and over again never asking a question only repeating their original point with added volume and abuse, repitition and volume dosen't make you more right, it dilutes the point you're trying to make as people stop seeing the opinion and only see the abuse. Unsurprisingly many fight back and the whole situation becomes fraught and many people back away, either because they don't want to be involved, they're afraid of attracting the attention of people who quite frankly are bullies. Others will pile in on the side of the person they like the best and a create a gang, the points raised in the original post become lost in ever escalating hyperbole and yet more accusations and abuse.

Another thing about written conversation is that we can't see the other persons face and expressions, I know as a group we're not always the best at reading faces, but many of us can get an idea of whether a comment is meant as humour, a wind up or a provocation and can respond accordingly.

I don't like agism, I object to agism, probably because I dont' get on with a lot of people my age and prefer the company of younger people who's values and tastes I often find more aligned to mine. I dont' think it natural for people to be divided into age groups and not allowed out except in certain circumstances and roles.

One final point, many people seem not only to have got hold of the wrong end of the stick, but have got hold of one from an entirely different tree and don't want to admit it and everybody ends up confused and cross.

You write "Guilty", I see "Insightful". 

There are those of us who are tragically deluded, and also those of us who know exactly what the problem is and want to offer a solution. 

Sometimes you play one role, sometimes another, or neither. 

Then there's the fourth option where you do both..

Best avoided IMHO.

Hi I Sperg

Thank you for this thought provoking post.

I think that because we feel rejected so much in our everyday life, it's easy to interpret remarks as a personal judgement sometimes, and obviously we will sometimes misunderstand things because communication difficulties are one of our main issues.

I have had another poster compare me to a white suprem*cist, but I took time to make sure I was calm before replying, then tried to explain my original post better and thanked everyone for their contributions, stating that everyone is unique and valued. I did not want to drive that person away by arguing, as I have found a lot of their posts interesting. If someone disagrees with me, I always try to use it as an opportunity to review my own thoughts and beliefs, and to see if I can learn from it.

I don't use any social media, I only post on here - I used to use Facebook when it first got going, but stopped as I found it mind numbingly boring. This forum is mostly good, and I've been greatly helped by it. So what if people argue or have misunderstandings sometimes? That's life. It doesn't mean the whole forum is bad.