When the fun stops, Stop. A post prompted by Yellow Tree "melting down" and departing yesterday.

Excellent post 

Maybe I am hard, but when someone throws a wobbly and leaves, my response is  " Goodbye. Sorry to see you go" and scroll down. 

I doubt many people here are deliberately unkind or offensive. I suspect many are over-sensitive. It sort of goes with the territory.

When I teach kids anger management, I say "Can you make me angry right now?"  Eventually they realise that none of us can make another angry unless they allow it. We are responsible for our own emotions. It's part of being a grown up person.

Taking offence is like taking a slice of cake. You can reach out for it, take it and consume it, or you can walk away. Some people take offence like Billy Bunter takes cake.

Welcome to the big kids' playground - we don't accept any bullying, but in the ordinary rough-and-tumble you may get the odd bruise and scratch. It happens. Play nicely. 

The information you get here costs you nothing, and sometimes what you get is worth precisely what you paid for it. Some posters will write rubbish. Hang around and stand your ground ... or have your say and walk away. Inevitably one needs to wade through a lot of dross to find a pearl of wisdom.  Is it worth it? Your choice.

If you are looking for therapy, get yourself a qualified counsellor. They are paid to care.

Please don't slam the door if you decide to leave. In the Big Scheme of Things:

" Take a bucket and fill it with water

  Plunge your hand in, right up to the wrist

 Then take it out, and the hole that remains

 Will show you how much you'll be missed."

Welcome back.

Lack of appearances can be deceptive ~ in that I have been visiting and reading from time to time, but on account of bureaucratic states of affairs and stacks upon stacks of note-taking ~ I was just too burnt-out to even contemplate writing anything at all.

I have missed your erudite posts.

I have so very much not missed the proverbial headache of writing them, but the treasure-trove exchange rates of communication are very much appreciated, thank you ~ and everyone else of course too.

I Sperg said:

YT used the word "intolerance" in his bullet points.

People can sometimes be quite negative about having their use of words otherwise interpreted or contextualised, especially in Yellow Tree’s case given that their ‘light-hearted’ intention for the direction of the thread had gone depressively and argumentatively awry.

I Sperg said:

I initially probed a little to find out what he meant by "intolerance of drugs" and I thought (maybe I was wrong) that his attitude which I interpreted in a way I believe is colloquially referred to as "not in my back yard"  or even my favourite, "none for me, thank you" was perfectly in alignment with my own about a number of things, and I thought I said so, actually celebrated it.

‘Intolerance’ still though carries a negative connotation, needing therefore a positive reinforcement contextually, such as for instance, “Now that’s the sort of intolerance that is very tolerant indeed, it makes me glad to be alive!”

I Sperg said:

Well as I mention below, I need to go silent now, but it seems there is a lot to unpack there, and I'll go do that to the best of my ability without further comment here.

BUT if you do "Say it, as if to a child" (Galaxy Quest, great film, coming up one sunday soon at the new time on I-Spergs film night!)  my PM box will remain available.  

Even when I am speaking with children ~ I still speak with the Adult or Spirit within, what with Child and Parent ego-states being behaviourally fragmented memories and memorisations and all that.

indeed!

And then add in curiosity, honestly questioning to understand.  Hopefully that leads the conversation on and deeper.  

I Sperg said:

If it's all of you, or just me that has to stop participating here, it's a no-brainer, innit? 

No. Not all of us want you to go, as Debbie said. How about I threaten to leave too if you go?! That might skew your equation?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qyclqo_AV2M

Welcome back.

I have missed your erudite posts.

I Sperg said:

They can all safely come back then, I assume you are in touch with those who have had to leave because of me. 

Of course I'm not.

You stopping posting would leave a void and you would be greatly missed.

I apologise for offending/hurting you.

I hope you change your mind.

Stay and work this out.

I have been preoccupied with a big project so Ive been checking in for short stretches since the beginning of the month.

I am not sure what the fuss is about nor how wide spread it is. I hope you all stay and continue this unique and precious social experiment.

My experience of the forum, as a whole, has always been as of a flock of starlings. The form is ever shifting and mesmerizing to me. Sometimes I see forms and meanings in the meandering, morphing shapes of the whole and also the individual birds breaking and shifting to inform that shape to a greater or lesser degree, but they remain a cohesive whole.

I do feel that this forum has given all of us a great deal more than we realize - until we step away from it for a time and try to deal solely with the world at large that is much more baffled by us than we are of each other.

I have been very interested in the ways we can emotionally and socially express our most authentic autistic brains in a world where we are a minority. This place is so precious and, even when our our passions rise, we are learning to feel safe enough to express them. No where else do I find such passion and striving for understanding. This is the opposite of an echo chamber, which is what we  want, right?

gotta go now. be back on the morrow.

In the meantime: you can blame all this on the sunspots and wait for cooler heads.

YT used the word "intolerance" in his bullet points.

I initially probed a little to find out what he meant by "intolerance of drugs" and I thought (maybe I was wrong) that his attitude which I interpreted in a way I believe is colloquially referred to as "not in my back yard"  or even my favourite, "none for me, thank you" was perfectly in alignment with my own about a number of things, and I thought I said so, actually celebrated it.

Well as I mention below, I need to go silent now, but it seems there is a lot to unpack there, and I'll go do that to the best of my ability without further comment here.

BUT if you do "Say it, as if to a child" (Galaxy Quest, great film, coming up one sunday soon at the new time on I-Spergs film night!)  my PM box will remain available.  

I used inflamatory language again ddin't I?

let's take another shot at that post, in a more neutral and easy to understand manner.

I really don't understand how you can feel that you have direct access to the 'truth' (in capital letters).

you make a statement about my state of mind in that sentence, here it is, isolated from the question and comment..

you can feel that you have direct access to the 'truth'

I've never, ever said (I most sincerly hope!) that I have "direct access" to the truth. 

That's the lie I pointed out, but I believe "putting words into my mouth" is a more accurate description.

BUt this ultimately isn't about who's right and wrong, truthful or otherwise, it's about TOLERANCE.

In an nutshell you keep accusing me of saying such awful things that people cannot TOLERATE being here. 

You'll probably even accuse me of being "intolerant" whilst you preach your intolerance!

You are telling me in effect that your way of thinking and that of several other people is right, and acceptable and that my way of thinking is toxic to your sort of people because of stuff that is going on in your heads. 

O.K. Well, the fun for me certainly stops right there.

Although people have asked me not to quit, and expressed enjoyment of some of what I write, it is clear that some people leave here quickly after picking a fight with me. It's suggested to me reading what debbie writes that tehre is also a cohort of people who simply "leave" PLUS there are the peoplewho tell me that they are leaving because of others conduct, but they told me because I was somehow implicated. 

Being RIGHT about my position on certain things and willing to be myself in public simply is not worth annoying Debbie every day, and causing hosts of the "woke" to leave this place which should be a sanctuary for all Autists.

ESPECIALLY when the solution is so simple. I just stop posting on this site. NO posts, No offended peeps.

They can all safely come back then, I assume you are in touch with those who have had to leave because of me. 

I'll leave my inbox open, but staying silent is obviously going to be a gross adjustment to my routine for me, so I'll be taking a few days off before I next access it whilst I cope with the unexpected influx of extra time.  

It's the right thing to do.The numbers don't lie.

If it's all of you, or just me that has to stop participating here, it's a no-brainer, innit? 

I Sperg said:

Also prompted by some of the nicer and more innocent posters asking "why?" both in public and also by P.M.

And yes, also hoping that by exploring this issue we can find a way of understanding and managing these issues, and making the forum work better for all, both old and young, Woke or based male or female, traditional or progressive etc.. 

The inference that “Woke” people are by contrast ungrounded and also that habitually / unconsciously abusive people are grounded ~ is somewhat contradictory, and given the nature of socio-political culture wars ~ it is somewhat unhealthy. Normalised abuse for instance increasingly damages our receptive capacities ~ which not only as such further obstructs the conscientiousness of our sensibilities, but also further corrupts them with unbefitting behaviourisms and conceptualisations about fitting in socially ~ involving of course social camouflage and personal masking ~ in order to reduce the chance of getting further attacked and further wounded.

I Sperg said:

I've mentioned it before, and it bears repeating: I have NEVER had as much "trouble" on the internet as I have had here, and I've been to some pretty contentious places, let me tell you! 

Awakening from the violently shared and enforced unconsciousness, subconsciousness and preconsciousness of normalised abuse is by it’s very nature troubling ~ i.e., layer upon layer of psychological and physiological trauma that is interwoven with unbefitting and oppressive narratives involving meaningfully displaced and replaced terms and terminologies, which is somewhat confusing and often considerably distressing.

I Sperg said:

I suggest, and would like help in the form of disagreement or agreement, that this is a facet of Autism.

It is actually a socially enforced co-morbidity that also effects people with Autism ~ on account of inappropriate facilitation, identification and affirmation socially, i.e., not being given the time or space to develop individually, not being communicated with in a meaningful sense, and not being congratulated when we succeed at things most other people don’t have to consider; let alone bother with!

I Sperg said:

In plain english, Autism leads us to have bad days where we see argument or opposition where none actually exists.

Or more accurately, the socially shared and enforced trauma of the past at best blinds us partially or at worst almost entirely in respect of what is happening in the present.

I Sperg said:

We have have had that in a previous encounter with that person and situation, and the "once bitten twice shy" situation then immediatly seems to kick in HARD. 

There is rather a tendency quite naturally that after decades of social oppression and personal repression ~ that some will continue out of habit to forcefully respond in kind (in the historical sense) ~ at least temporarily or sometimes occasionally.

There is also rather the problem of course that most people end up dealing with their pre- and post-diagnostic psychological issues here, rather than so much or even at all with appropriately qualified and experienced psychologists or councillors etcetera.

I Sperg said:

That is my own personal expererience, and after discussing it at some length with my Sprog, who now actually works in MH and is ND we believe this is an artifact of the well known Auitistic "pattern recoognition" SUPERIORITY  over the NT masses.  

The only problem with that analysis is that inferiority complexes consist of inferior, mediocre 'and' superior delusions of grandeur, which involves the ‘will to power’ that disempowers everyone that is as such transactionally inclined and motivated towards assuming other people’s assumed positions of power, rather than embodying their own internal power and as such setting a fulfilling example that likewise empowers everyone else as well.

I Sperg said:

Yellow Tree however, specifically mentioned two issues that prompted his departure, and whilst it would be easy (and possibly correct) to see those as his personal issues and none of my business,  he specifcially mentioned his own "Woke" beliefs and "60 year old members of this site" as being an issue for him, which does make it my business, FI I am concerned about "ageism" (which I have been since I was about 12 years old and started doing sponsoered walks for "help the aged" etc.) and also because his break with the community was seemingly triggered by a post I made.

A post which I made at the time with my heart singing with joy, as it seemed Yellow Tree had expressed a concept I'm trying to sell very hard these days "Reject the sin but not the sinner". 

What then seemed to happen, is that YT (I hope the obvious abbreviation is O.K.) Read my post, saw an entirely different attitude being expressed to what I was holding, and went with that. My attempt to explain my self only seemed to make matters worse. 

Reserving the right to at least be to some extent wrong, it seems to me that the main problem was that Yellow Tree really did not appreciate a serious debate on the international nature of male and female inequality, nor then also your statement that his acceptance of others smoking was the sort of “Intolerance” that makes you glad to be alive ~ remembering that some people really do get their jollies from sarcastically criticising and humiliating others, and also if you call someone’s opinion a display of intolerance ~ no matter how humorously you meant it to be ~ such things can instead be mistaken as “Emphasised” criticisms, and the offence of which can prevent them from being able to interpret otherwise beyond the last letter of what is for them the offending word.

I Sperg said:

It became obvious to me before Debbie articulated it, (correctly) that if I merely shut up and stop participating, less people would be motivated to leave this site.

Here you have let your wounded Child and critical Parent ego-states obstruct and corrupt your Adult sensibilities, but instead used them more effectively to balance out the compulsive drivers of your Child and Parent ego-states as follows here:

I Sperg said:

A less drastic position would seem to be, If I were to simply "modify my conduct better in order to fit in", but for some reason, (perhaps described in teh cenrtal word of this websites banner) that course of action seems to be harder than just walking away, or perhaps just retreating to the echo chamber of my inbox? 

In one sense it is harder to walk away from these situations in that the primary need to interact with others in a balanced way is not as such fulfilled, and the echoes of our Child and Parent ego-states continue to behaviourally haunt and possess us and anyone else that gets involved with these transactional rip-offs.

I Sperg said:

Over to to you guys, but one more thing:

JUST here, just now, in this thread only please obey this rule: As soon as you feel inclined to write a passionate post from the hip, do it by all means, but make sure you keep it safe adn ready to post, but sleep on it (literally) before htting send.

I think this is a serious and diffciult enough topic that it will take a day or two before the community works out a way that we can stem the flow of otherwise rational and valuable posters form this site. So there isn't a race to post before obscurity sets in. I'll bump it myself at least over the weekend if replies are sparse.

I have asked for a second opinion both from the wiser members of this site, and also the admins on occasion, (for about two years now), as to whether I make a net positive contribution to the site, because in addition to the guilt I feel when anyone takes violent objection to something I said then appears to "strop off, comlaing bitterly" I also get periods where I get sick of the conversation and want to leave for my own personal reasons. There is an element of addiction to this stuff, that if I'm doing no good, I ought to be working harder to break. 

The addictive element is a socially fostered and personally adopted re-characterisation of one’s self in order to fulfil other people’s social demands ~ rather than one’s own personal needs.

I Sperg said:

I created a "safe space" thread instead where I can go and share the most innocent and non-controversial of human activities, looking at each others pussycats. (I wonder if that word will make it past the filter?)  Everyone copes in different ways, but maybe as a community we can make ourselves stronger somehow if we talk more about this weakness we seem to suffer from?  

Maybe consider this problem as actually being an encumbrance rather than as such a weakness?

Deal with the cause (‘critical’ Parent and ‘wounded’ Child ego-states) rather than the symptom (‘obstructed’ and ‘corrupted’ Adult sensibilities), and all that.

I Sperg said:

I simply do not remember either claiming, saying, intimating or hinting that I have direct access to the truth. That statement is a LIE, it's not even a half truth.

I'm completely confused once again by a reponse on here.

What does this mean then?

I already quoted the same above the comment about truth that you are calling me a liar on to make it clear that this is what I was referring to.

It's a system I use a lot to avoid misunderstanding but it appears not to have worked in this instance.

I Sperg said:

I hold the belief that I am but a part of a greater reality. Logically therefore, TRUTH is an accurate description of that reality, and the LIE is a distorted representation (it cannot be a description) of reality.

I simply do not remember either claiming, saying, intimating or hinting that I have direct access to the truth. That statement is a LIE, it's not even a half truth.

Any "truths" I may know have been hard won and tested thoroughly. 

Sadly the world out there is not the world most of us would prefer to live in. Just because strident and eloquent people deny some aspects of basic reality, does not change reality one iota. 

OF course I (or you) can choose to believe anything we like, and it might work for us, the trouble comes when others object to you believing whatever it is you do, and set out to FIX you.

Truth is a very subjective thing when we're talking about beliefs and opinions, to me a hard truth or fact is something you can stub your metaphorical toe on, these tend be found in scientfic contexts, most other things have layers of meaning and understanding. I'm not a black and white thinker, obviously there are some things where I'm catagorical about rightness and wrongness, I find the shades of grey far more interesting so this is where I find myself more often than not.

One of the things I find interesting and confusing, is why people see conspiracies where most likely none exist? Why if someone says something and two or three people disagree with them is this some sort of behind the scenes conspiracy? Why not just accept that there are people who disagree with you, often strongly? Accusations of behind the scenes ganging up dilutes the original point of whatever the controvercery was just as much as resorting to abuse and restating the original point at increased volume. Oddly the people who see behind the scenes conspiracies against them are often the sort of people who are keen to tell you they know "The Truth" and that they're "Only Being Honest", but they are often unable or unwilling to explain to others why? Presumably to be both honest and truthful you have to have knowlege and understanding of that which you are honestly speaking the truth about? So where is that honesty and truthfulness in these types of discussions and argument? Why are such people so willing and able to dish it out, but so unable to accept it back? So if you wish to declare something true and that you're only being honest, then be prepared to back it up, state your sources, give us something to have a rational conversation about, even if it is somethig contravercial and subjective.

I Sperg said:

My private messaging contains testimony that some people are appalled indeed and leave the site or hibernate not because of what I say, but the unpleasantness of the conversation that results. 

My private messages show a different pattern.

I Sperg said:

I hold the belief that I am but a part of a greater reality. Logically therefore, TRUTH is an accurate description of that reality, and the LIE is a distorted representation (it cannot be a description) of reality. Pretty much all my politics and beliefs stem from expanding on that basic understanding.

I think a little bit of self doubt is quite healthy actually.

I really don't understand how you can feel that you have direct access to the 'truth' (in capital letters).

What about the truths of others?  Can truth be an absolute and if it can, how can you be sure it's your own version?

I think 'truth' is undefinable in the subjects we disagree on so openess to the experience and knowledge of those you disagree with might help to alleviate dissention here.

I appreciate the fairly detailed "pushback".

I do wish I could be sure who you are, (It might be obvious to third parties) but whilst I might be seen to object to and even oppose certain ideologies held by some posters at the time of posting, (as a "cenrtist" I find that BOTH extremes dislike the likes of me!) I deliberately don't remember people based on their political persuasion. There are other metrics I find more interesting.

I have however when younger actively taken part in demonstrations, worked voluntarily for CND and collected money voluntarily for anti-cruelty animal charities etc.

Until the last few years I've never been so sure of my understanding of things outside of my own special interests that I have been motvated to take any political action. I've always envied those who were able to. I've been accused of being a marxist in the past, and also right wing, but I test as centrist.

I've been involved in more arguemnts and "strife" on this forum than any other I've participated in. Some points I have noted are:

1. Often such things can be evoked by a throwaway comment or hyperbole, used in the moment but the reaction is as if I had planned to cause offence one commeneter going as far as to suggest that I had picked a certain time for effect when I made a post. 

2. There is a similarity clearly evident in the people who I offend. I have not yet got to the point of drawing venn diagrams in my effort to sort out my end of the problem, but it isn't off the table...

3. My private messaging contains testimony that some people are appalled indeed and leave the site or hibernate not because of what I say, but the unpleasantness of the conversation that results. 

4. I hold the belief that I am but a part of a greater reality. Logically therefore, TRUTH is an accurate description of that reality, and the LIE is a distorted representation (it cannot be a description) of reality. Pretty much all my politics and beliefs stem from expanding on that basic understanding. I dont know if our disagreement is at that fundamental level of understanding or comes after it.

But thank you very much for making an effort to be clear and speak your truth.

Edit. It appears that it is Debbie... 

AuTriker said:

But I think in the west, power is shifting (as it should) away from (only) men, and they can feel it and don't like it, some probably feel it has gone more than half way, while many women still feel it has not yet reached half way. And when those men are also in an unempowered and marginalised group (autistic) they may feel it worse. Or they may see it as a bad thing for various other reasons, because we see the world from different angles.

I think this is a very perceptive observation.