Published on 12, July, 2020
Also prompted by some of the nicer and more innocent posters asking "why?" both in public and also by P.M.
And yes, also hoping that by exploring this issue we can find a way of understanding and managing these issues, and making the forum work better for all, both old and young, Woke or based male or female, traditional or progressive etc..
I've mentioned it before, and it bears repeating: I have NEVER had as much "trouble" on the internet as I have had here, and I've been to some pretty contentious places, let me tell you!
I suggest, and would like help in the form of disagreement or agreement, that this is a facet of Autism.
In plain english, Autism leads us to have bad days where we see argument or opposition where none actually exists.
We have have had that in a previous encounter with that person and situation, and the "once bitten twice shy" situation then immediatly seems to kick in HARD.
That is my own personal expererience, and after discussing it at some length with my Sprog, who now actually works in MH and is ND we believe this is an artifact of the well known Auitistic "pattern recoognition" SUPERIORITY over the NT masses.
Yellow Tree however, specifically mentioned two issues that prompted his departure, and whilst it would be easy (and possibly correct) to see those as his personal issues and none of my business, he specifcially mentioned his own "Woke" beliefs and "60 year old members of this site" as being an issue for him, which does make it my business, FI I am concerned about "ageism" (which I have been since I was about 12 years old and started doing sponsoered walks for "help the aged" etc.) and also because his break with the community was seemingly triggered by a post I made.
A post which I made at the time with my heart singing with joy, as it seemed Yellow Tree had expressed a concept I'm trying to sell very hard these days "Reject the sin but not the sinner".
What then seemed to happen, is that YT (I hope the obvious abbreviation is O.K.) Read my post, saw an entirely different attitude being expressed to what I was holding, and went with that. My attempt to explain my self only seemed to make matters worse.
It became obvious to me before Debbie articulated it, (correctly) that if I merely shut up and stop participating, less people would be motivated to leave this site.
A less drastic position would seem to be, If I were to simply "modify my conduct better in order to fit in", but for some reason, (perhaps described in teh cenrtal word of this websites banner) that course of action seems to be harder than just walking away, or perhaps just retreating to the echo chamber of my inbox?
Over to to you guys, but one more thing:
JUST here, just now, in this thread only please obey this rule: As soon as you feel inclined to write a passionate post from the hip, do it by all means, but make sure you keep it safe adn ready to post, but sleep on it (literally) before htting send.
I think this is a serious and diffciult enough topic that it will take a day or two before the community works out a way that we can stem the flow of otherwise rational and valuable posters form this site. So there isn't a race to post before obscurity sets in. I'll bump it myself at least over the weekend if replies are sparse.
I have asked for a second opinion both from the wiser members of this site, and also the admins on occasion, (for about two years now), as to whether I make a net positive contribution to the site, because in addition to the guilt I feel when anyone takes violent objection to something I said then appears to "strop off, comlaing bitterly" I also get periods where I get sick of the conversation and want to leave for my own personal reasons. There is an element of addiction to this stuff, that if I'm doing no good, I ought to be working harder to break.
I created a "safe space" thread instead where I can go and share the most innocent and non-controversial of human activities, looking at each others pussycats. (I wonder if that word will make it past the filter?) Everyone copes in different ways, but maybe as a community we can make ourselves stronger somehow if we talk more about this weakness we seem to suffer from?
Maybe a brave MOD or even one of the usually quite reticient but wiser members of the forum might be able to help lead us towards a better way of conducting ourselves?
I Sperg said:My main objection to "Woke" is the rabid intolerance it's adherents seem to present toward anyone who disagrees with them. It seems to be qute polarising, and invasive,
My main objection to "Woke" is the rabid intolerance it's adherents seem to present toward anyone who disagrees with them.
It seems to be qute polarising, and invasive,
These words of yours are what I find polarising and invasive, actually.
I have no idea about 'woke' - I have no idea about the 'lynch mob' mentioned in another post by another member.
I only know what I've felt was right all my life - to defend the vulnerable and marginalised in society.
I'm not a part of any faction or group.
I haven't watched TV for 25 years, haven't listened to the radio for a long period of time, very rarely read the news and keep myself as far away from these things as possible these days (this isn't true in the past).
I don't read any social media sites except photography one.
I have however when younger actively taken part in demonstrations, worked voluntarily for CND and collected money voluntarily for anti-cruelty animal charities etc.
So, I've been active but I am independently minded.
We once had a discussion on here where you said something and several people disagred with you.
You appeared to think that this was an organised thing - maybe the 'lynch mob' referred to by this other user.
I assured you that I rarely talk to others about these things on here - when in discussions by PM I talk about personal matters on the whole.
I've read 2 members in particular talk about society becoming more polarised now and factioned.
I'm no part of that and as it is you and I who disagree most now (all the others who disagreed with you having left the site) I would just like that to be clear.
If you say something I disagree with I challenge you if what you say hurts me (in a variety of ways).
All the time I can't refrain from challenging what others say when those views cause me grief I will refrain from participating here as I don't want the conflict to upset younger members of the community in particular.
Have you considered that the 1st sentence actually demonstrates 'rabid' (such a loaded word - demonstrating fanatisicm) intolerance itself ie towards your personal definition of 'woke'?
Truth is a very subjective thing when we're talking about beliefs and opinions, to me a hard truth or fact is something you can stub your metaphorical toe on, these tend be found in scientfic contexts, most other things have layers of meaning and understanding. I'm not a black and white thinker, obviously there are some things where I'm catagorical about rightness and wrongness, I find the shades of grey far more interesting so this is where I find myself more often than not.
One of the things I find interesting and confusing, is why people see conspiracies where most likely none exist? Why if someone says something and two or three people disagree with them is this some sort of behind the scenes conspiracy? Why not just accept that there are people who disagree with you, often strongly? Accusations of behind the scenes ganging up dilutes the original point of whatever the controvercery was just as much as resorting to abuse and restating the original point at increased volume. Oddly the people who see behind the scenes conspiracies against them are often the sort of people who are keen to tell you they know "The Truth" and that they're "Only Being Honest", but they are often unable or unwilling to explain to others why? Presumably to be both honest and truthful you have to have knowlege and understanding of that which you are honestly speaking the truth about? So where is that honesty and truthfulness in these types of discussions and argument? Why are such people so willing and able to dish it out, but so unable to accept it back? So if you wish to declare something true and that you're only being honest, then be prepared to back it up, state your sources, give us something to have a rational conversation about, even if it is somethig contravercial and subjective.
I appreciate the fairly detailed "pushback".
I do wish I could be sure who you are, (It might be obvious to third parties) but whilst I might be seen to object to and even oppose certain ideologies held by some posters at the time of posting, (as a "cenrtist" I find that BOTH extremes dislike the likes of me!) I deliberately don't remember people based on their political persuasion. There are other metrics I find more interesting.
Until the last few years I've never been so sure of my understanding of things outside of my own special interests that I have been motvated to take any political action. I've always envied those who were able to. I've been accused of being a marxist in the past, and also right wing, but I test as centrist.
I've been involved in more arguemnts and "strife" on this forum than any other I've participated in. Some points I have noted are:
1. Often such things can be evoked by a throwaway comment or hyperbole, used in the moment but the reaction is as if I had planned to cause offence one commeneter going as far as to suggest that I had picked a certain time for effect when I made a post.
2. There is a similarity clearly evident in the people who I offend. I have not yet got to the point of drawing venn diagrams in my effort to sort out my end of the problem, but it isn't off the table...
3. My private messaging contains testimony that some people are appalled indeed and leave the site or hibernate not because of what I say, but the unpleasantness of the conversation that results.
4. I hold the belief that I am but a part of a greater reality. Logically therefore, TRUTH is an accurate description of that reality, and the LIE is a distorted representation (it cannot be a description) of reality. Pretty much all my politics and beliefs stem from expanding on that basic understanding. I dont know if our disagreement is at that fundamental level of understanding or comes after it.
But thank you very much for making an effort to be clear and speak your truth.
Edit. It appears that it is Debbie...
I've read 2 members in particular talk about society becoming more polarised now and factioned. I'm no part of that
I'm no part of that
Hello Debbie, the thread in question was about the male perspective and we were discussing our experiences. Your response was a rather harsh one pointing out the inequalities suffered by women in Afganistan and Pakistan which was part of the polarisation I then referred to.
You are a fierce supporter of womens rights but I feel this has led you to have a rather one sided view which you will defend fiercly.
This was the faction that you are a part of, but it is not a criticism. This is a subject which has a need of much more attention than it currently gets and there are loads of changes still needed to bring true equality.
All I was asking for is not to cancel our experiences of inequality because of a different inequality you are standing up for.
There can be inequalities for men and for women in different areas at the same time. Both are deserving of being stood up against.