Published on 12, July, 2020
Also prompted by some of the nicer and more innocent posters asking "why?" both in public and also by P.M.
And yes, also hoping that by exploring this issue we can find a way of understanding and managing these issues, and making the forum work better for all, both old and young, Woke or based male or female, traditional or progressive etc..
I've mentioned it before, and it bears repeating: I have NEVER had as much "trouble" on the internet as I have had here, and I've been to some pretty contentious places, let me tell you!
I suggest, and would like help in the form of disagreement or agreement, that this is a facet of Autism.
In plain english, Autism leads us to have bad days where we see argument or opposition where none actually exists.
We have have had that in a previous encounter with that person and situation, and the "once bitten twice shy" situation then immediatly seems to kick in HARD.
That is my own personal expererience, and after discussing it at some length with my Sprog, who now actually works in MH and is ND we believe this is an artifact of the well known Auitistic "pattern recoognition" SUPERIORITY over the NT masses.
Yellow Tree however, specifically mentioned two issues that prompted his departure, and whilst it would be easy (and possibly correct) to see those as his personal issues and none of my business, he specifcially mentioned his own "Woke" beliefs and "60 year old members of this site" as being an issue for him, which does make it my business, FI I am concerned about "ageism" (which I have been since I was about 12 years old and started doing sponsoered walks for "help the aged" etc.) and also because his break with the community was seemingly triggered by a post I made.
A post which I made at the time with my heart singing with joy, as it seemed Yellow Tree had expressed a concept I'm trying to sell very hard these days "Reject the sin but not the sinner".
What then seemed to happen, is that YT (I hope the obvious abbreviation is O.K.) Read my post, saw an entirely different attitude being expressed to what I was holding, and went with that. My attempt to explain my self only seemed to make matters worse.
It became obvious to me before Debbie articulated it, (correctly) that if I merely shut up and stop participating, less people would be motivated to leave this site.
A less drastic position would seem to be, If I were to simply "modify my conduct better in order to fit in", but for some reason, (perhaps described in teh cenrtal word of this websites banner) that course of action seems to be harder than just walking away, or perhaps just retreating to the echo chamber of my inbox?
Over to to you guys, but one more thing:
JUST here, just now, in this thread only please obey this rule: As soon as you feel inclined to write a passionate post from the hip, do it by all means, but make sure you keep it safe adn ready to post, but sleep on it (literally) before htting send.
I think this is a serious and diffciult enough topic that it will take a day or two before the community works out a way that we can stem the flow of otherwise rational and valuable posters form this site. So there isn't a race to post before obscurity sets in. I'll bump it myself at least over the weekend if replies are sparse.
I have asked for a second opinion both from the wiser members of this site, and also the admins on occasion, (for about two years now), as to whether I make a net positive contribution to the site, because in addition to the guilt I feel when anyone takes violent objection to something I said then appears to "strop off, comlaing bitterly" I also get periods where I get sick of the conversation and want to leave for my own personal reasons. There is an element of addiction to this stuff, that if I'm doing no good, I ought to be working harder to break.
I created a "safe space" thread instead where I can go and share the most innocent and non-controversial of human activities, looking at each others pussycats. (I wonder if that word will make it past the filter?) Everyone copes in different ways, but maybe as a community we can make ourselves stronger somehow if we talk more about this weakness we seem to suffer from?
Maybe a brave MOD or even one of the usually quite reticient but wiser members of the forum might be able to help lead us towards a better way of conducting ourselves?
I Sperg said:My main objection to "Woke" is the rabid intolerance it's adherents seem to present toward anyone who disagrees with them. It seems to be qute polarising, and invasive,
My main objection to "Woke" is the rabid intolerance it's adherents seem to present toward anyone who disagrees with them.
It seems to be qute polarising, and invasive,
These words of yours are what I find polarising and invasive, actually.
I have no idea about 'woke' - I have no idea about the 'lynch mob' mentioned in another post by another member.
I only know what I've felt was right all my life - to defend the vulnerable and marginalised in society.
I'm not a part of any faction or group.
I haven't watched TV for 25 years, haven't listened to the radio for a long period of time, very rarely read the news and keep myself as far away from these things as possible these days (this isn't true in the past).
I don't read any social media sites except photography one.
I have however when younger actively taken part in demonstrations, worked voluntarily for CND and collected money voluntarily for anti-cruelty animal charities etc.
So, I've been active but I am independently minded.
We once had a discussion on here where you said something and several people disagred with you.
You appeared to think that this was an organised thing - maybe the 'lynch mob' referred to by this other user.
I assured you that I rarely talk to others about these things on here - when in discussions by PM I talk about personal matters on the whole.
I've read 2 members in particular talk about society becoming more polarised now and factioned.
I'm no part of that and as it is you and I who disagree most now (all the others who disagreed with you having left the site) I would just like that to be clear.
If you say something I disagree with I challenge you if what you say hurts me (in a variety of ways).
All the time I can't refrain from challenging what others say when those views cause me grief I will refrain from participating here as I don't want the conflict to upset younger members of the community in particular.
Have you considered that the 1st sentence actually demonstrates 'rabid' (such a loaded word - demonstrating fanatisicm) intolerance itself ie towards your personal definition of 'woke'?
I appreciate the fairly detailed "pushback".
I do wish I could be sure who you are, (It might be obvious to third parties) but whilst I might be seen to object to and even oppose certain ideologies held by some posters at the time of posting, (as a "cenrtist" I find that BOTH extremes dislike the likes of me!) I deliberately don't remember people based on their political persuasion. There are other metrics I find more interesting.
Until the last few years I've never been so sure of my understanding of things outside of my own special interests that I have been motvated to take any political action. I've always envied those who were able to. I've been accused of being a marxist in the past, and also right wing, but I test as centrist.
I've been involved in more arguemnts and "strife" on this forum than any other I've participated in. Some points I have noted are:
1. Often such things can be evoked by a throwaway comment or hyperbole, used in the moment but the reaction is as if I had planned to cause offence one commeneter going as far as to suggest that I had picked a certain time for effect when I made a post.
2. There is a similarity clearly evident in the people who I offend. I have not yet got to the point of drawing venn diagrams in my effort to sort out my end of the problem, but it isn't off the table...
3. My private messaging contains testimony that some people are appalled indeed and leave the site or hibernate not because of what I say, but the unpleasantness of the conversation that results.
4. I hold the belief that I am but a part of a greater reality. Logically therefore, TRUTH is an accurate description of that reality, and the LIE is a distorted representation (it cannot be a description) of reality. Pretty much all my politics and beliefs stem from expanding on that basic understanding. I dont know if our disagreement is at that fundamental level of understanding or comes after it.
But thank you very much for making an effort to be clear and speak your truth.
Edit. It appears that it is Debbie...
I Sperg said:If it's all of you, or just me that has to stop participating here, it's a no-brainer, innit?
No. Not all of us want you to go, as Debbie said. How about I threaten to leave too if you go?! That might skew your equation?
I Sperg said:They can all safely come back then, I assume you are in touch with those who have had to leave because of me.
Of course I'm not.
You stopping posting would leave a void and you would be greatly missed.
I apologise for offending/hurting you.
I hope you change your mind.
Stay and work this out.
I used inflamatory language again ddin't I?
let's take another shot at that post, in a more neutral and easy to understand manner.
I really don't understand how you can feel that you have direct access to the 'truth' (in capital letters).
you make a statement about my state of mind in that sentence, here it is, isolated from the question and comment..
you can feel that you have direct access to the 'truth'
I've never, ever said (I most sincerly hope!) that I have "direct access" to the truth.
That's the lie I pointed out, but I believe "putting words into my mouth" is a more accurate description.
BUt this ultimately isn't about who's right and wrong, truthful or otherwise, it's about TOLERANCE.
In an nutshell you keep accusing me of saying such awful things that people cannot TOLERATE being here.
You'll probably even accuse me of being "intolerant" whilst you preach your intolerance!
You are telling me in effect that your way of thinking and that of several other people is right, and acceptable and that my way of thinking is toxic to your sort of people because of stuff that is going on in your heads.
O.K. Well, the fun for me certainly stops right there.
Although people have asked me not to quit, and expressed enjoyment of some of what I write, it is clear that some people leave here quickly after picking a fight with me. It's suggested to me reading what debbie writes that tehre is also a cohort of people who simply "leave" PLUS there are the peoplewho tell me that they are leaving because of others conduct, but they told me because I was somehow implicated.
Being RIGHT about my position on certain things and willing to be myself in public simply is not worth annoying Debbie every day, and causing hosts of the "woke" to leave this place which should be a sanctuary for all Autists.
ESPECIALLY when the solution is so simple. I just stop posting on this site. NO posts, No offended peeps.
They can all safely come back then, I assume you are in touch with those who have had to leave because of me.
I'll leave my inbox open, but staying silent is obviously going to be a gross adjustment to my routine for me, so I'll be taking a few days off before I next access it whilst I cope with the unexpected influx of extra time.
It's the right thing to do.The numbers don't lie.
If it's all of you, or just me that has to stop participating here, it's a no-brainer, innit?
I Sperg said:I simply do not remember either claiming, saying, intimating or hinting that I have direct access to the truth. That statement is a LIE, it's not even a half truth.
I'm completely confused once again by a reponse on here.
What does this mean then?
I already quoted the same above the comment about truth that you are calling me a liar on to make it clear that this is what I was referring to.
It's a system I use a lot to avoid misunderstanding but it appears not to have worked in this instance.
I Sperg said:I hold the belief that I am but a part of a greater reality. Logically therefore, TRUTH is an accurate description of that reality, and the LIE is a distorted representation (it cannot be a description) of reality.
I simply do not remember either claiming, saying, intimating or hinting that I have direct access to the truth. That statement is a LIE, it's not even a half truth.
Any "truths" I may know have been hard won and tested thoroughly.
Sadly the world out there is not the world most of us would prefer to live in. Just because strident and eloquent people deny some aspects of basic reality, does not change reality one iota.
OF course I (or you) can choose to believe anything we like, and it might work for us, the trouble comes when others object to you believing whatever it is you do, and set out to FIX you.
I Sperg said:My private messaging contains testimony that some people are appalled indeed and leave the site or hibernate not because of what I say, but the unpleasantness of the conversation that results.
My private messages show a different pattern.
I Sperg said:I hold the belief that I am but a part of a greater reality. Logically therefore, TRUTH is an accurate description of that reality, and the LIE is a distorted representation (it cannot be a description) of reality. Pretty much all my politics and beliefs stem from expanding on that basic understanding.
I think a little bit of self doubt is quite healthy actually.
What about the truths of others? Can truth be an absolute and if it can, how can you be sure it's your own version?
I think 'truth' is undefinable in the subjects we disagree on so openess to the experience and knowledge of those you disagree with might help to alleviate dissention here.