Possible to be sociable with Aspergers

He has an appointment with CAMHs on 13 January.  I'm not sure what his problems are but we need help so I am very glad we have an appointment.

Hi Migsy,

Thats great the GP is referring him. I hope he gets the help he needs.

Good luck

Sam

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Update - I had a chat with the GP this morning and she has referred him to children's and teenager's mental health unit.

I feel so releaved that I have taken the first step to getting help for him whatever his problem turns out to be.  This morning he had 2 tantrums.  One was that the bowls were not in the cupboard where he expected them to be but were still in the dishwasher (clean and dry).  He got into a rage and broke a small track wheel off the dishwasher.  The other tantrum was because he found ink on his face and it did not come off easily when he washed it.  

He is such a challenge!

I think you are right they do care but unfourtunatly they cant get on and help people because there is to much red tape and too little money. In the 5 years my son was in secondary school the SEN department budget was halved. With many assistants losing their jobs and the people that were left, were running around trying to do everything on their own with no backing from the teachers or management.

My school have only just started helping me since my diagnosis as I'm one of the few students they have that's gotten A's in Textiles and Art a.k.a. I make them look good.

SEN department genuinely cares (which is taking some time to get used to) but the actual school seems happy to leave them in the dark, they have to hear all the issues from me. And school preaches to us about 'communication' every assembly, practice what you preach comes to mind...

Maybe the SEN at your school can make helpful suggestions? They seem to be the only ones who're paid to care (unlike normal academic teachers), and the majority of them do honestly care.

That is interesting Sam and Hope.  It does seem that various disabilities overlap. He is dyslexic but I think there is something else there too.  I'm going to take him to the GP.  I just want to know how to manage him better.

Hi hope,

Thats so true and really sad, it makes me so angry that school appear to be more interested in results in their league tables than in helping people that need it.

Sam

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When I was at school I had severe visual-spatial deficits and poor numerical understanding, poor organisation, difficulty following multiple instructions, difficulty with group sports and a very low performance IQ. I still have these difficulties but they affect me less now because I play to my strengths not my weaknesses. I could ride a bike and was very good at tennis and one-to-one sports, but I could not swim (and still cannot) and was hopelessly bad at any games that involved strategy.

At school I believed I was slow, stupid and incompetent but I now know that I am not any of these, and it came as a revelation when I found out that I actually have a superb memory for facts and that I am really good at understanding complicated philosophical theories. The school handled my difficulties badly, and was only really interested in helping the popular and smart kids - read neuro-typical.

Hi,

 My son has a duel diagnosis of AS and Dyspraxia ,so your son might have both as opposed to one or the other. This did cause difficulties for my son getting a clear diagnosis as one thing masked another for years and he didnt fit in either box too well lol! it was only a few months ago that his clinical psych diagnoised that he had AS as well as his pre existing diagnoses of Dyspraxia. My sons  Dyspraxia is a coordination/organisational based problem including things like spacial awareness, organisation skills, an  inability to cross the midline i.e controling the right hand when it is reaching across the body to grasp something or touch something that is over to the left of themselves or vise versa, maths can be challenging, riding a bike is beyond my sons abilities he can either pedal or steer but not both at once lol! His technology teacher and cooking techer both gave up on him and he followed a purely academic timetable in secondry school in the end. It used to be called clumbsy child syndrome about years ago because of how often they can trip or fall or drop things, my son also showed behavioural problems that was put down to frustration with the physical problems that he has. When in fact it wasnt frustration it was total meltdowns due to the AS. does that help at all? is it ringing any bells with you? Dont worry if its not there are many other kinds of Dyspraxia my son has the type that effects both fine and gross motor skills but there is also things like verbal dyspraxia and dyscalcular (to do with numbers sorry about my poor spelling). Hope this has helped if it hasnt just ignor it all !!! lol!!

Sam

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Thanks for all the advice.  It has been very useful.  I'm not sure what his problem is - whether he has AS or perhaps dyspraxia (he is dyslexic by the way too).  I'm going to go to the GP and ask to get him assessed.  He seems OK about this as I have spoken to him.  He can actually explain some of his fears etc if I ask him about them.  I just need advice from a professional about how to manage him.

Thanks! 

yep thats the sort of thing that happened to my son, he was verbaly bullied but didnt realise it, and left out of everything going on around him. Its a difficult thing to understand unless you have been there and seen it.

sam

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When I was at secondary school other people in my class  would say, ''we are not laughing with you we are laughing AT you'', and I thought that they were being friendly and found me funny!. It is only now, with the benefit of hindsight, that I can see how I took this comment the wrong way

Yes, it is possible to be sociable and to have AS. I am a case in point: very sociable, love talking (often non-stop!), noisy when I am around people I trust, and feel lonely without social contact; but I don't have any close friends.

You say your son has friends, which is really good. I only had a few friends when I was at primary school, but when looked at from a clinical point of view, they were not friends in the  true sense of the word and I often broke up with them. It might be worth assessing whether your son has meaningful friendships, or whether he understands what real friendship is about.

There are other conditions such as ADHD, ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) and PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance), which involve social difficulties, and can exist alongside AS or they can be the sole problem. An assessment should also screen for these conditions, too.

Hi migsy,

Just wanted to say that my son who is 16 had a very good circle of "friends" at primary school. I added the quotations because it realy does depend on what you mean by both friends and sociability. My son who has AS desperatly wants to have friends and to be sociable its just he doesnt understand the social norms and therefore annoys people constantly or would just appear standing near a group or in fact to close to a group of people and would consider himself to be part of this group even though the group would not think that way, also my son would often tell me things that had happened or were said at school but he didnt pick up on the underlying message and would just be reporting to me as he has a need to tell me things even if they dont bother him ,for example someone snapping at michael and saying 'im too busy to be bothered with you ' he would take to mean that they were actualy too busy and at the first opertunity when the person does not look busy he would re ask them without any idea that the person just didnt want to know or picking up on the differences in tone of voice or even the fact that he had been snapped at. I found that primary school kids are the most forgiving of this as they are just learning these social rules themselves and are far more accepting of differences than older children. So at a primary school age he would of appeared to be sociable and have friends.

The whole social scene in secondary school pointed out his strugles far more than primary school. However he is now in college with a group of people with similar interests to him as they are studying film, who seem to acept his differences and even respect his trivia knowledge on his faviourite subject, yep films, and are happy to talk to him for ages about it. Also there are some older people in the class who seem to see when he is lost and jump in to explain things to him.

Dont know if that all makes sence to you or helps in any way. I found the post from Kalojaro very helpfull myself to understand some of my sons behaviour.

All the best

Sam

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Hiya, just saying I remember having a few of those when I was little, still get told to speak slowly to date. I've got Aspergers Syndrome (High Functioning) and I'd just like to point out a few things on your list that I did and why I thought it was the right thing so maybe you can see why your son acts that way?

Getting angry far too often and lashing out at siblings for no good reason;

When I was little my younger sister used to mock me, lash out at me, insult me and much more when mum wasn't around, so when I finally lost it I'd lash out, only for her to run whining to mum lying and blaming me for it. It was only until a few years ago when mum caught her in the act that this finally got addressed, so think hard because usually people with ASD have no reason to lie and can be brutally honest, so personally I'd favour his view on things rather than his siblings.

Getting angry with teachers (he bottles this up)

Being expected to do things a certain way that you find confusing or pointless then getting pretty much told 'I'm big, you're small, I'm right, you're wrong' by the teacher, leaving you feeling powerless and angry. I still do this to date, only now my mum encourages me to have a good rant whenever I get home to help me calm down.

Getting  highly stressed about being late or not being able to do something "right".

Anxiety. Took me getting diagnosed to realise what this emotion really was. But seriously, if I'm not on time or I do something 'wrong' repeatedly, for what some see as no reason at all I will literally feel as though something terrible will happen, as though I'd suddenly drop dead if I didn't make it in time or get it right. Coping slightly better now, more used to 'going with the flow', but structure is the one thing I can cling to when I feel like I'm getting out of my depth.

Having tantrums/meltdowns when things do not go his way.

Usually upset/annoyed no one even seemed to be listening to what I say. You have any idea how annoying it is when you have a plan that would work, only to be told you're doing something else that doesn't make as much sense? I know now I wasn't always right but still, at least if someone explained why we were doing something different to my way then I could calm down a little. Would still strop about being wrong but wouldn't hit meltdown.

Sleep problems

After being diagnosed (about a month ago) mum bought me a hammock, and I was told to play music at night to drown out any sounds that would wake me up. Best nights sleep in my entire life.

Going on and on about something incessantly until it is resolved.

Again, right and wrong. In school and at home, you're always told things should be a certain way. Being little, you take this seriously. Adults seem to brush off what you deem a big issue, they could be watching TV while you're worrying to death over something like going to the park when they said they'd take you, so the only logical path is to keep reminding the adult that something must be done.

Having difficulty waiting, e.g. at doctors or barbers and getting up to ask staff how much longer he has to wait

Boredom. In ten minutes, I could be drawing, going online, doing homework, walkign the dog, watching TV etc. etc. Time wasting is not good. Being told to sit still and do nothing is torture. Lately I've been makng my own rubber band ball whenever I have to wait for something, or I play with a piece of fur I've got on a necklace, it keeps me distracted until the appointment is up.

Fear of lifts/stairs/escalators

It is a bloody long way down if you fall. If you trip on stairs you'll fall for ages, break limbs etc etc. If you're on the escalators your shoelace could get chewed up and it might take your foot off, or you'll fall. If you're in a lift..... its either a very small metal, or glass, box that goes really high, what if you get stuck? Will you suffocate? Will you fall? What? Its all about anxiety again. The fear may seem silly to you but to us these situations can genuinely happen. I can go up stairs or use escalators now, but even so I cling to the banisters and sides with a deathgrip and go slow, just to be safe.

Fear of food - he has a limited diet and will only eat very plain food such as a bowl of pasta or rice with no sauce

I hate sauce. It feels weird and gross. Also makes my food all slimey and horrible. I'll have you know I lived off ham sandwiches, rice and chicken and peas, and other forms of plain meat with rice for a whole year (as long as I had some butter to go with it). Its just, the taste and the texture of some foods is horrible, I hate slimey, so I avoid slimey, it's not a fear, more of a preference, although you'd think someone was trying to kill me when I was little and given tomato sauce, screamed the house down.

Has to get dressed in a certain order

Again, routine. If you stick to routine, everythings fine, everything's safe, you know what you've done, where you are and what you're doing. If you don't, you'll forget things then panic later on once you realise.

Hates change

I used to scream, cry and cling to solid objects when I was taken from nursery into reception. I did the same from reception to infants, from infants to juniors, and when the schools became a primary (still surprised no one noticed my symptoms by then to date). When a playcentre opposite my road was knocked down for flats, I also used to freak out constantly, it's taken five years to get used to them there now. Change is a break in the routine, its not safe, you feel scared, insecure and totally alone. Anxiety once more.

Will not tolerate simple dental/medical procedures

I don't know these people, why should I a) let a weirdo with a funny chair and scary lights poke metal things around in my mouth and b) let anyone near me with a needle? I nearly punched a woman giving me the cervical cancer jab a few years ago, luckily I'd warned her and she ducked but my point still stands, its an unknown situation and anxiety kicks in, making you scared and closed to any form of 'reasoning'.

Obsessive behaviour and expecting his brother to take part in his obsessions.

Takes a while for you to realise no one else wants to play with you. This lead to depression and isolation for me during high school, as at that point no one wanted to even know about any of the things I was interested in. As a kid you just assume everyone likes what you like, because other kids assume you like what they like.

Overall I'd say try and get him assessed, these are pretty strong traits and it can't do any harm, if he's diagnosed, you'll be given ways of understanding and coping with his behaviour, and if he's not, at least you know he's not.

Good luck.

Thanks so much for the advice Sandra and Longman.  

Hello Migsy,

I am very sorry to hear about your concerns. I have included a link to some information about diagnosis in children:

http://www.autism.org.uk/about-autism/all-about-diagnosis/diagnosis-the-process-for-children/diagnosis-what-to-expect.aspx

On the first page of that you will find further links to info about autism and about Asperger syndrome. I hope you will find that useful when considering the difficulties your son is experiencing and you are deciding what to do next. You can find out more about how an assessment can be sought through that article. If you have any further questions or would like to talk through your situation please do give the Autism Helpline a call (contact info is also included in the above articles) and they will do their best to help.

I'm sure our users will have experience to share on this subject and please do continue discussing and asking questions here.

Best of luck to you and your family.

Sandra - mod

I think NAS needs to come in on this and direct you to the right resources. Apart from some work with undergraduates I can really only comment from learning around my own direct AS experiences.

Tony Attwood in "The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome" p325- talks about some children with asperger's syndrome, when feeling "alientated from peers, due to a lack of social competence and acceptance, and perhaps further alientated because of learning difficulties or superior intellectual abilities, he or she can achieve authority in a social situation by intimidation".

I would counsel you though to get professional advice. I think there is a lot of generalised stuff about classic aspergers in clinical observation which gives the impression a child has to meet the standard diagnostic to be aspergers, which may be true of getting diagnosed, but shouldn't be the only criteria for seeking help.

A lot of the list above is familiar to people on the spectrum and their friends. But I thgink it is time to get advice from the right authorities. The discussion group moderators should be able to help. 

Good luck

Thanks Longman.  The thing is that I do not know if he has AS and I had just put the lack of eye contact down to him being defiant. Now I realise that there may be more to it than I thought.

The things that worry me about him are:

Getting angry far too often and lashing out at siblings for no good reason;

Getting angry with teachers (he bottles this up)

Hitting out on the football field

Getting  highly stressed about being late or not being able to do something "right".

Having tantrums/meltdowns when things do not go his way.

Sleep problems

Going on and on about something incessantly until it is resolved.

Having difficulty waiting, e.g. at doctors or barbers and getting up to ask staff how much longer he has to wait

Fear of lifts/stairs/escalators

Fear of food - he has a limited diet and will only eat very plain food such as a bowl of pasta or rice with no sauce

Has to get dressed in a certain order

Disruptive behaviour - seemingly deliberately annoying people by making silly noises, jumping about etc.  Not responding when it is explained to him that his actions are causing distress 

Hates change

Will not tolerate simple dental/medical procedures

Obsessive behaviour and expecting his brother to take part in his obsessions. He does not understand or accept that people might not want to "play his game" and will go crazy if his brother does not take part.

I could go on but living with him is very stressful and I really need help in managing his behaviour.  Not sure if I should have him assessed as he is reasonable sociable.  He just struggles a bit with life.

It is important to distinguish textbook diagnostics from what actually happens to people. The diagnostic perspective is about "gaze aversion" conspicuously avoiding eye contact, but as many teenagers and asdults find, social necessity prompts them to look in the general direction of people's faces even it it means looking at their mouth or throat. Then the professionals deduce there is no gaze aversion.

The critical issue is failure to get the information conveyed by other people's eyes and facial expression, but also failure to generate the appropriate eye and facial expression responses expected.

I am concerned that you insist on him making eye contact with you. If that is uncomfortable for him, forcing him to do it is not helping matters. Indeed you could try sitting slightly to one side, so you are off axis of his face yourself (if his eye contact is poor it will be a vaild way to communicate). Or ask him what he finds comfortable.

Some people look away to advantage the hearing without distraction of seeing. He may have found a group of friends who are accommodating, and don't get annoyed if he isn't exchanging correctly. But that may be the circumstances in one school environment. Also it does not mean that all his class contemporaries are so favourable. He may be getting a lot of ridicule or even outright bullying which, being expected to put on a brave face, he wont be able to tell you about for fear that you follow up on this and he gets called a snitch. School situations can be a vicious circle between covert abuse and the need to not react or "tell".

If he is getting increasing peer pressure as well as disapproval from teachers his day will get more and more tense, so he may let go when he comes home.