Chris Packham show - glossing over relationship problems

I worry about the last para as it makes a huge generalisation, something I think is very dangerous when talking about anyone on the autism spectrum. It’s a spectrum for a reason, everyone on it is unique in where they fit, hence such a global statement about being irresponsible to have a relationship is frankly rubbish.

i accept that for some it is incredibly difficult to have a relationship. I was married for 18 yrs and every day was a challenge but I tried very hard to make it work. My wife left me three weeks after my diagnosis so I’m happy to accept it obviously wasn’t enough!

That said we have three beautiful children and I spend a huge amount of time with them. Yes I can’t always understand why their upset, nor why I sometimes answer the way I do. But if any of them asked if I would go to their graduation I’d be there with bells on. Hating every second of the noise, lights and people but it would be important to me to support them.

I would do the same for my ex even now. Since she left there has been a gap in my life. I don’t understand why but she’s now there when I want to share things with her, I still cook meals for her and drop them round sometimes, I still buy her flowers on occasion and help her choose dresses. Why? Because it makes her feel good and I like that. 

I accept I’m more than likely destined to be single for the rest of my life but whether or not I meet the qualification and definition of ‘love’ whatever that is isn’t the point. The point is if two people of differing skills, temperaments, and even interests can find a space to share and spend they’re time together who are we to judge.

Otherwise where do you stop? By the time you’ve banned narcissists, politicians, lawyers and all the other groups who can’t possibly enjoy a mutually loving relationship there won’t be many left....

I am really truly sorry that your relationship didn't work out, i can see how hurt you are and feeling let down. As an example of other individuals and how your experience is not possible to stereotype......I am an NT (whatever that is!!) and i am in a cohabiting, good relationship with my HF Autistic partner. We aren't married but that's only because i don't like the institution of marriage. We are committed in every other way, going on for 15 years. We have two kids, one is an exact a carbon copy of my partner and one is very much like me, so we are continuing the array of good and tricky traits we both have in different areas. Of course, we've had our fair share of ups and downs and difficulties, as all relationships do have, when life sends us down a bendy road of chaos and unpredictability, we have to respond as best we can! It's taken a while for me to make sense of some of my partner's occasionally mysterious behaviours and sometimes hurtful responses, we didn't know he was on the spectrum until we realised that our child was. Now those areas all start to make sense and some of the responses my partner has, which were unexpected to me, i now understand in a new light. When i've had difficult times, it is hard for my partner to emotionally be there for me, but he does everything he can to help in other areas, he solves other problems and logistics and issues which sit around the 'emotional centre' enabling me to focus entirely on my emotional issue whilst managing the chaos surrounding it. I am quite emotionally stable and self reliant and so maybe i'm not so in need of emotional support, i don't know - i'm certainly full of empathy but i am no victim and i don't feel like i'm living with any vampires! I have friends and family if i need other support, but honestly i rarely do. I can't see that this is any different for any partnership, no one is good at everything, no one has a full emotional tool box, in fact most of my friends complain about their husbands not understanding their emotional needs!!! In our relationship we have strengths and weaknesses in different areas and can therefore be stronger together, we are a compliment in almost everything, he covers my blind spots and i cover his, we are a team and sometimes he pisses me off and sometimes i piss him off. Compared to what goes on in other relationships, i feel very lucky, even without the instinctive empathy part!! It goes without saying, he is capable of self reflection and self awareness and we can often joke about issues and resolve our differences, even if it starts with a lack of understanding or reluctance, no different to anyone. I absolutely admire my partner and my sons. We are most definitely in the right relationship and it has no bearing whether we are NT or ASC, we are simply the right fit. I hope you can see that we are all individuals and that the ability to respond instinctively by imagining yourself in someone else's shoes, although is important, is not a show stopper - it certainly does not exclude that individual from feeling deep love, being sensitive and feeling attachment and ALL the other feelings which we all share, both for themselves and for others, on any part of the spectrum of life. I didn't want to share this as a criticism but as an honest example of one relationship which works in spite of and maybe because of our neurological differences!! Good luck in your future relationships xx

Although I do not personally share or agree with some of Maras views, perceptions and interpretations of events which were in the programme; underlying all this speculation, I can’t help but feel that Mara raised an important point which is being missed and ‘glossed over…’ here. And that point is (not to focus on CPs relationships personally but instead that the show may have highlighted) that it may be painful for an NT dating an ND in ways that only (NT) others in a similar situation may be able to fully understand?

And this point (as seemingly raised in Maras opening post) appears to be stemming from the fact that the usual things that an NT may naturally assume or expect from any ‘loving’ relationship, such as that their partner (parent or child) will be there for them during difficult or important times, may prove to not necessarily be entirely 'true' when dating (or being in a relationship with) an ND? This point is, of course, true when dating NTs too, however:

Using the programmes content as an example only; Megan’s Graduation demonstrates this point. I fully appreciate and respect that CP does not want to go due to a plethora of possible reasons however; this rationale, however justified from his point of view, may make it fully understandable, but likely does not stop it still hurting Megan that he won’t be there. And I think the important point that this example and Mara both raised may be that, even if an NT knows why an ND does or does not do something, knowing this ‘fact’ with the mind may not always stop it hurting the heart.

There are many NT people out there who know and accept why their ND child (or partner) does not hug them, but this may never stop them wanting a hug from their child (or partner) nor feeling the pain of loss of having no hug.

This is not to say that all NTs are there for their partners (parents or children) either, far from it. Or that NDs should be demonised in any way. However, it is no good pretending that dating a ND is ‘typical,’ because it may often be not. And this diversity has, in my opinion, great strengths and a great many positive and highly appealing aspects, but it must also have its downside for NTs too? And I think it’s appropriate to candidly reflect on (and not seek to shame) that downside, especially when an NT, such as Mara, reaches out and tries to share and make sense of their experiences.

And, in my understanding, it’s downright and irrefutably callous to suggest that any hurt or heartbreak endured by NTs or NDs in any relationship is simply and entirely their own fault for ‘knowing the score.’ We do have free will (allegedly) in our relationships with others, but equally: surely no amount of will power or freedom to choose has the ability to entirely stamp out hurt?

Yeah, there are as many types of relationships as there are people and we all want different things. Some people just want companionship while others want deep soul connections. We're all living and learning and we can learn from other people as well as from our own experience but making judgements never helps anyone and if we can accept ourselves, we can accept everyone else. 

I have held off replying to this until now but feel I have to put my three ha'pence in.

Relationships are different for everyone.  What one person sees as the 'ideal' relationship another will find unbearable.  Some couples are very tactile, smothering their partners with hugs and kisses, and never having a moment of time on their own.  Others manage to keep a long-distance relationship together with no outward sign of emotion.

It is surely not for us to judge other people by our own standards.  I do know it is a trait of many people to pass comment on what others are doing even if it is legal and does not affect anyone else. And we all know that others passing judgement made perfectly loving relationships the victims of the law until quite recently even though they were causing no one else any harm, because of the seeming need of interference in how others conducted themselves in their own way in private.

How Chris, or anyone else, conducts his relationship is up to him and his partner.  His partner is not being forced to endure the partnership, she is old enough to understand and is willing to accept him.  And as a way he is affected by autism, it put a powerful point across.  The point that he feels that his relationship is best served by living apart and seeing each other on a regular basis but not living together.  And however frustrated his partner is over this she accepts this.  This is what Chris is like, and to change that she would not have the same person who she is obviously very fond of.  Yes, relationships do break down as I know to my cost, but once again we do not have the information and I don't believe it is any of our business to try to predict this in other people.

I have a grown up daughter and would never dream of interfering in how she wishes to conduct her relationship with her boyfriend.  She is old enough to decide for herself.  And likewise I would never dream of passing judgement on a couple I didn't know who are conducting their lives in a way that is ultimately acceptable for them however we may have interpreted it.

I guess the only solution in your opinion, would be to make it illegal for autistic people to get into a relationship, to lock us up in prison indefinitely if we dare to venture into one because as you noted, 'To say that there’s nothing wrong with a condition that would make an individual think that this is acceptable is dangerously misleading'. Maybe we should skip the relationship thing and just lock us all up anyway, seeing as how we're all so dangerous. 

I feel for you, I really do, I was in a similar situation to yours, I was convinced my ex had narcissistic personality disorder and had specialist therapy to get over that but I now realise  he is probably autistic and therefore I have no hard feelings towards him. I realise he was just doing his best. It sounds like you still have some healing to do which is understandable, these types of situations can take a long time to heal from but like Jedders, I have no sympathy for the two females, they ought to know him by now and if they love and respect him then they will accept him for who he is and not try to push him to do things that that will cause him a lot of stress. I haven't seen the program but he will have worked hard to find a way to live where he can minimise stress and avoiding high stress situations is one thing we have to sacrifice. There are events that I would love to go to but the price I pay is way too high so I have to not go. Others might view me as being mean or selfish or uncaring or whatever, and if that's what they think, then they don't know me very well and there's not a lot I can do about that.

Like others on here, I sincerely wish you healing and happiness and a loving relationship that meets all of your needs.

There is no crystal ball. Nobody knows how they will be when life hits hard. 

In your rants it seems that Packham and all aspies are a conduit for your bitterness and that you are looking for a punchbag, or whatever else from your rants. 

I wish you happiness.  

Packham's thank you message was about the programme about his Aspergers, kept professional and left out the personal.  Maybe he doesn't want relationship bringing into it and making a circus out of it. 

What about Packham if she decide's she wants out?!  What about the effect on him?!  She will easily find someone else. How easy will it be for Packham?!  Is your concern not misplaced from your experience?

Is this really possible to predict, how any of us (any human, I mean) is going to react to terrible things happening to someone else or themselves (and the second would also affect how the first should ideally look like)? If you ask this question before it actually happens it may seem a lot easier to deal with it, feelings will probably be less strong, the urgency to do something and do the right thing isn't there, you don't see someone suffer and suffer yourself for being unable to make them feel better (or at least thinking that you are unable)... Don't think that's an ND-specific problem although finding your own and other people's feelings overwhelming quite easily will not help. We can only trust someone and hope for the best - or not trust others...

I have enough experience of my own thanks.

you seem to be biased from your hurt. 

I wish you happiness.

Hi Everyone,

Thanks so much for all your candid but kind replies. I haven't responded til now because discussing this issue has been very triggering for me. After a particularly low point a few months ago I've learned that I need to build a fence around my mental health and protect it as a priority. So I've been trying not to dwell on this debate, so close to home as it is, too much.

Although several people made fair points (about the lack of time available, the show being focused on the positive aspects of autism, impact of the film crew on Chris' behaviour etc), what I have found most impactful about this thread has been the sentiment of a lack of care for people who get hurt by the actions of loved ones on the spectrum. Direct quotes being: “I wasn't bothered about the girlfriend”, “I don't have any sympathy for the two females... they knew the score”.

While of course I agree that “It is highly personal and up to us all, as individuals, (NT and/or ND) to decide exactly what we are prepared to give and do in a relationship…and our choice alone also as to what we are prepared to accept or not accept from others too”, it’s rarely that simple. In my research since my own awful experience, I have read that my experience is common – that the autism spectrum individual will be attracted to a naturally empathetic person, who often has their own self-esteem issues. In short, someone who is willing to give more than they believe they deserve in return.

My partner was very happy to share what he was willing to share, and was happy if that made the other person happy (like in the film, Chris is a wonderful father figure as he’s very happy to take his step-daughter out on wildlife adventures). In my experience, this was the only side of my partner I saw for a long time, long enough for love to grow. Then when incidents in which reciprocation was called for, and he proved unwilling to give or share in any experience that was meaningful to me but was outside his own interest or comfort zone (like how Chris responds to his step-daughter’s request to attend her graduation, how his sister describes her whole childhood experience with him), my low self-esteem was such to make excuses for him, and tell myself that they were just minor issues, didn’t matter in the bigger picture.

Then a bigger picture event occurred. My Dad died, and my boyfriend just discarded me. After years of telling me he loved me and wanted to make a life with me, less than 24 hours after the toughest loss of my life he tells me that he doesn’t think he’s ever loved me and wants out. To say that there’s nothing wrong with a condition that would make an individual think that this is acceptable is dangerously misleading.

A friend sent me an article on “Empaths and Vampires”, and it’s the only way I’ve been able to make sense of his actions. That he was an energy vampire, who drinks of the kindness of empathetic, self-effacing women. Bereaved, I ran out of juice and was therefore of to use to him anymore. The immediate and total switch-off of his feelings for me at this time was so dramatic that it seemed very much like the result of cold calculation – she wants from me more than I can give, so therefore, I’m out of here. This is why I think it’s dangerous to gloss over the terrible harm that lack of empathy can cause, with a view such as “it’s not appropriate to interpret behaviours or intentions through an NT worldview". Just because someone has a reason to act unkindly doesn’t make it ok.

So this is why I worry so for Charlotte. As ‘Tortoise’ mentioned – she has expressed her hopes that they will move in together soon, does that seem likely? Look at Chris’ thank you message, not a mention of Charlotte…

Yes, it is her choice to be with him, and yes, maybe it’s not as bad as it looks. But as so many respondents said, human relationships ARE complicated, and when we act with our heart rather than our head we can get deeply entrenched in sticky situations that we may need help to get out of.

I’ll end by just saying this, for both NT and Autism Spectrum partners – use my experience as a litmus test… If, and when, some painful life event happens, will you be able to be there for the other person? Have that conversation now, before it actually happens and save yourself the extra pain of finding it out at the worst possible moment.

Best wishes.

Exactly!x

Although CP is used to cameras, I think his T.V work has always been focused on (able to hide behind) the animals, so it was very brave of him to make a programme in which he bared his own soul. 

Very perceptive of you.....and particularly with the added complexity of a camera crew looking on.... x

Ps. It really is so very interesting how we do all interpret the world, people and events so differently....I interpreted CPs 'insistence' on Charlotte 'greeting the dog' as a result of him perhaps feeling embarrassed and perhaps not knowing how to manage greeting Charlotte (the initial intimacy of being face to face with one another) after having spent time apart...

Hi Mara,

Interesting post.

I think that a great many NTs watching the programme DID look at Charlotte, sitting there all alone, and thought they could detect her feelings being potentially neglected and hurt by aspects of her relationship...

However, I didn’t interpret CPs treatment of her to be ‘negative’ 'dysfunctional' or that of ‘disdain…’ that’s the whole point with NDness really, it’s not appropriate to interpret behaviours or intentions through an NT worldview.

Accordingly, I interpreted CPs behaviours and feelings towards Charlotte and his relationship as simply being a part of who he is; and a very frank and honest insight into exactly what he is personally prepared to do or give (and not do or give) in his relationship with her...

It is highly personal and up to us all, as individuals, (NT and/or ND) to decide exactly what we are prepared to give and do in a relationship…and our choice alone also as to what we are prepared to accept or not accept from others too?

And so I think it is really Charlottes business alone to decide what she is prepared to accept or not accept in her relationship and from CP?

One mans meat is another mans poison after all.

I am, however, really glad that you are starting to now 'pull through' what sounds like a really awful time of it.

Best wishes.

Got emotional reading that...particularly the p.s’s

Chris Packham has just posted a thank you which is worth reading:
http://www.chrispackham.co.uk/news/aspergers-and-me-thank-you

I would like to second Jedders' comments.

As I mentioned earlier, Chris Packham should be applauded for making the programme. Yes, he is more fortunate than most people with autism but that does not detract from the programme (particularly as he acknowledged that he is more fortunate than most).

I watched this yesterday after reading about it in the forums.

I cut him and the programme makers some slack. 

The title Aspergers and Me    

The intention as he said was to show what it was like to be him. 

it was very brave of him to do that and reveal how it is for him, leaving him open to criticism from everyone for a condition that have such effects on him.   

He's opened the door for discussion and enlightenment at the risk of making himself look like an ogre and to be shot down in flames for it.

I thought it was unfair to pressure him to go to the graduation. 

The programme was about Packham's Aspergers and clearly through the programme he has difficulty connecting and it seems that the dog was the conduit for the connection and greeting, maybe he was eager for that (love me, love my dog) rather than being aggressively demanding and dominating. 

He's clearly had it with people, but not laboured the points of what and why, he's looking for peace and calm and luckily for him he has got a house in a remote location and is finding the control he needs for his peace and calm.  Good for him.  It's not possible for all Aspergers to do that, maybe not all Aspergers want that, but there is a point across that some need to have that remoteness even if they can only manage some down time in a peaceful room now and again - highlighted by his room with the blinds. 

I don't have any sympathy for the two females, they've known him all those years and know the score with him, I could cynically wonder if he didn't have the fame and fortune if they would be around him now or if they'd have been gone long ago. 

I think I'm a probably over empathic female but I find it hard to connect to my OH, I don't think it is all me. I was uncomfortable too at his obvious distancing, was that just editing? 

The hardest bit to watch for me was his step-daughter having no grasp of why he wouldn't go to her graduation. I can completely understand why he would do that given a choice (private income and house), but can simultaneously feel her pain at being left alone in that situation. It felt to me that he had enough power and money to implement complete isolation/selfishness. 

Most of us don't have that option and wouldn't want to hurt others that much (perhaps I mean females here, but I'm not sure). It hurts me to be hurtful, though sometimes I know I am. His girlfriend said in the Radio Times interview that they were working towards living together, I saw no sign of that from him and it made me sad for her.

I wish you all the very best strength with your recuperation from an obviously difficult relationship and time.