National Service

Number said:

 Lets call them "obfuscations and half truths"......it is much more polite, than to say "lies".....and possibly more accurate too, perhaps?

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

Pegg said:

I am so utterly sick of the endless lies. 

.....strong words Pegg?  Lets call them "obfuscations and half truths"......it is much more polite, than to say "lies".....and possibly more accurate too, perhaps?

I am minded to quote a film here - "you want the truth, YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH."......quickly followed by the disambiguation that this quote is NOT directed at you Pegg.....it most certainly is not.  You are self evidently more informed than most, on many matters - notably the woeful "politics" of the day here in Blighty.

I agree with all your points above, but think it worthy to add that the armed forces who would be responsible for these few young people joining their ranks have expressed great concern about the COSTS of this plan on their budgets.  One might paraphrase them by saying "we don't really want them thank you, because they will be expensive to manage and train...and will loose them just when they might actually become useful to us."

One of the primary problems that the UK has right now is "productivity."  It is a very very big problem.  Western Europe is being shepherded (with fear dogs) into a pre-war footing.  UK society is growing ever more fragmented and fissured.  

This youth conscription scheme is the best idea that this government (in it's last gasps of existence) could think of to try and mitigate these combined and growing problems......but they haven't bothered mentioning the extent, depth and seriousness of this current toxic cocktail of challenges that the UK now has.   And like you say Pegg, I am sure that some "internal messaging" featured heavily when this government decided how and when to present this "magic" scheme!  /dp

Literally Pegg, I don't think everyone/most can handle the dire truth.....when you think holistically?

Happy Wednesday, btw, everybody!  Keep smiling and being good.

TheCatWoman said:

As I mentioned before no one has commented on the non military options for this national service, why is that?

Well, because 'National Service' is a loaded term, deliberately selected to imply military combat training. 

In fact, that is NOT what is being proposed. Even those 30k who will be chosen to spend a year in the armed forces will be in non-combat roles. This is what the Government has said. Intelligence, Procurement, Logistics. Jobs for the privately educated - no change there. 

As for the rest, that 97% or so, they'll be free labour to prop up failing public services.

As with everything the government says, there's always a self-serving agenda underlying what they say.

I am so utterly sick of the endless lies. 

I agree that martial arts classes are good for instilling self discipline and respect.

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These proposals won't just be aimed at men, but women too, do you think that young women will repsond in the same way? Is the military a safe place for women and those from ethnic minorities, we've seen time after time the numbers of women who've been sexually assaulted and raped, often by senior officers and are left to deal with it alone. Ethnic minorities often suffer horrendous bullying and racism, is this going to make them more "British"?

As I mentioned before no one has commented on the non military options for this national service, why is that?

I Sperg said:

Income tax is supopsed to be optional you know. It was bought in to finance a war and never rescinded. 

was to kill napoleon wasnt it? ... napoleon is long dead and we are still paying this tax to kill him lol

nah they wont tax the parents... theyd do as they usually do and get someone else to pay for someone else... so single dudes would be taxed to fund this free training for some random adults kids.... thats more likely.... most obnoxious style, the person taxed isnt even benefitting from it, its someone elses kids. thats how it will be... the parents of the kids receiving the free training and benefit wont be taxed.

yeah im on the fence with it.

i can see how it can help and maybe change a bad lad to a better lad... i can also see how it may change a bad lad to a even worse dangerous lad...

it all depends really, each person it will have different result....

one thing i can say is that a decent martial art class will have the same result. fitness, discipline, fighting, getting any bad energy out of system in controlled place and destressing, assertiveness, confidence, life changing stuff.... doesnt need to be military they could send to to any decent martial arts class... comes with same risk that teaching bad cocky kid martial arts may just create a hazard to the public though... so it is case by case basis.

As an Irish patriot living in the U.K., I would refuse to fight in any U.K. war and I would rather return to Ireland to defend my homeland and my people from our own corrupt government in Ireland - they are trying to end Irish neutrality and force Ireland to join NATO, scrapping our 1937 constitution that expressly states that Irish neutrality is fundamental to the Irish state, to not get involved in foreign wars - that said, I like Swiss model, itself a neutral country, where all Swiss nationals train every 6 months in the reserve defence forces in order to defend the country to protect thier neutrality 

We see how young people seeking adventure from troubled backgrounds in the Edwardian age lied about thier age to enlist in the Great War (WW1) and it was similar in WW2 - what we now see was common to both world wars was that they were lied to and betrayed, even if they made it back safely and not injured from both world wars where their comrades were not so lucky and it turned out they fought on the wrong side - some wars are more controversial than others, such as the Vietnam war or the Iraq war or in Afghanistan - they are using people, especially young people as cannon fodder, and this is morally repugnant 

Aside from the fact that some sectors of the milltary have gone woke, even the last time that the milltary had national service they did not want to do it and it became a bullies playground and those ideas sunk into and destroyed society decades later - the army have said that they don’t want to be used to solve social problems like the police have been used to solve mental health issues - politicans and those pushing national service refuse to understand that the police and the milltary are a professional fighting force with high professional standards and national service would weaken the effectiveness of the milltary 

The way that veterans are treated in this country, where they served a country that clearly hates and despises them, why would anyone even join the milltary or do national service, even if forced, where bullying of all kinds is normalised - some things just never change 

It’s like the same kind of thinking that was constantly drummed into me when I was growing up in Ireland as a child that I needed to take the bullying and take the beatings because “it builds character” and that taking the bullying is “for my own good” - not only did all of the teachers in school defend the bullies and where I was punished for being bullied, the police were called to give me a good hard beating for being bullied, I was the one who was seen as the problem because I was the one who was being picked on because I was regarded as mad and “not quite right in the head” because I could not accept reality and accept the consequences of my own actions because I was not slapped often enough and hard enough as a child, according to the police at the time 

Iain said:

I often wonder if this would be a good way for so many of our snowflake generation to learn the importance of discipline, whether self or imposed and that there are a lot of positives in spite of the negatives.

Snowflake generation? That dismissive term is exactly the type of nostalgia-for-something-that-never-was which helps no-one. You want to harken back to a time when there were no 'snowflakes'? Please tell me when that was. I was born in the 70s. I remember the outcry if someone said a swear word on TV or a naked breast was visible. How's that for a snowflake generation? Or let's go back further, when people had an attack of the vapors every time a woman achieved a position of power. Snowflakes everywhere! 

Millennials and Gen Z are having to live with the economic wasteland that decades of rampant consumerism has left behind. They are shackled with massive student debts, find it almost impossible to buy property, and live paycheck to paycheck. They're disciplined enough. More so than I ever was at that age. 

I Sperg said:

Vomitting emoji is appropriate, but not I suspect for the reasons you were looking for..

It was totally appropriate.

Anyone who is happy to dismiss and patronise a whole generation by calling them all 'snowflakes' (or any group anything else by a denegrating collective term) makes me feel nauseous.

There are a lot of people in this world who believe they are better than others.

This can work on various levels: class, intelligence, economics, sex, sexuality, race, morality, life experience, religion (ad infinitum).

It's dismissive, patronising, narrow minded and egocentric.

I agree with you Capt, I've been told that all sorts of things are character building, I've even tried some of them! I think I'll stick to being characterless if thats the sort of character they want to build. I think I'm just the sort of person who can't help asking 'Why?' when someone tells me to jump.

I notice this thread has exclusively stayed on the military option and not the civilian ones, why is that?

Well Debbie, since our glorious and progressive leadership has got us into a shooting war now, who do we send to go fight the Russians? 

Will YOU be stepping up? 

Vomitting emoji is appropriate, but not I suspect for the reasons you were looking for..

And young peopel are easly convinced to do stupid things, (which is why some people think they shouldn't be allowed to vote, of course)

Iain said:

our snowflake generation

Vomiting emoji as mine won't paste.

Income tax is supopsed to be optional you know. It was bought in to finance a war and never rescinded. 

I prefer to work as a contractor and (NOT) pay my own income tax.

It's been about 20 years now since the tax people sent me any paperwork, because guess what?

If you simply do not reply, they give up. As do the speeding fines people, TV licence, road tax etc. 

They are so used to the sheep co-operating in their own fleecing that there seems to be no interest in people like me who refuse to engage or pay for their own brainwashig and enslavement.

PAY for a BBC licence? Haven't done that EVER as far as I can recollect. There was always alternative activities that didn't fill my mind with rubbish and demand that I PAY for that "service".. 

Some department wrote me a letter the other day inviting me to pay them 62 quid because I've not taxed nor sorned my vehicle. I bet you lot would be RUSHING to give it to them.

ME, not so much. MOLON LABE MF's!!

And they never do follow it up.  Actually after three years of being ignored the T.V licence people eventually sent a man out to see me. HE caught me on a bad day and made the mistake of HAMMERING on my door.

I made him an offer that he sensibly refused, and in fact ran away quickly before I made good on it. (Which I would have, happily).

Army training on how and when to fight, for the win...

Them private parking people? IGNORE THE LETTERS. IF they clamp yrou car, walk past it and return late at night with the tools neccesary to cut it off. Are they going to post a guard on your car overnight? NO. (In my case, I returned at 23:300 hrs to find that the clamp had been removed, so I didn't even need the tools).

PUSH BACK or comply with the endless robbery and financial death by a thousand cuts, IT IS A CHOICE YOU MAKE.

I Sperg said:

it trains you to prioritise service over self interest

That will never work out for Gen-Z LOL

I Sperg said:

when I went to my forst working unit, in fact some staff sergeant made me a "personal project"

I would hope that this is becoming less common with the spread of understanding of neurodivergence but for the majority who are neurotypical then they will blend in well.

I wonder how the military will get on with the trans entrants - that will create a whole world of pain for both sides I would imagine.

I Sperg said:

Still, we get the leaders that we deserve...

well said.

Clearly, you've not any practical expereince of mIlitary training.

It IS character building, in that it trains you to prioritise service over self interest, it gives you experiences that you'd otherwise never think of having, or have the opportunity to do (unless you have money to burn) and in my case it gave me a very solid training in electronics. It also trained me to know when it is apporpriate to standup and put up a fight and when to run away.

Then of course, you get sent out to kill or be killed in a "bankers war" when they next need to make a "blood sacrifice", unless you are lucky like I was and pick the right time to join. 

And to be fair, whilst I was grateful of the training opportunites for self advancement, I found that I was consistently bullied (for what I now know to be my autism) adn it didn't stop when I went to my forst working unit, in fact some staff sergeant made me a "personal project", and after a mere three months I'd had enough, so I quit.

I managed to do it in such a way, that in addition to making my own escape, I seem to have trashed his career in the process. (as I later found out) Result!! 

And regressive thinking is the opposite of the progressive thinking that produces the useless man-boys and deviants that currenlty hold sway over your thinking and "lead" our country.

Like the current chanractlerless prat who having got us into a shooting war with the Russians (which they have not actually informed us PLEBS that we are in, but the russians know alright who is operating those storm shadow missiles, and it isn't the Ukrainins ) suddenly realsies that he doesn't want to be a "wartime prime minster" so having got us Ba**s deep into that mess, is seeking to bail out quickly and leave the mess to someone else.

Still, we get the leaders that we deserve...