National Service

I was once told that because I’m gay that I’m “a freak and a weirdo” so I do empathise 

Agreed.

For me the healthy debate ends when people start calling me names. yesterday I just felt like adding a bit of personal snark of my own. 

And I'm not trying to be "erudite and witty", I was being deliberatey obscure out of petty annoyance.

I don't allow myself to deliberately do it very often, but some days I guess I am less sane than on most.

They don't want to put their own kids into national service, only ours.

Captain Grover said:

I have a problem with your use of the word deviant, though. By definition (actions or behaviors that go against social norms or expectations) Plato, whom you quote, was a deviant. Most of those who have propelled the species forward have been deviants. It tales a deviant to push society's norms until they change. And it takes the norms to look at someone and denounce them as deviant. 

I would imagine this point does not need explaining to a group of us NDs. 

I couldn't agree more.

I Sperg said:

I can't think that any of you really think that we benefit from wise and fair leadership, and that is simply because we are lead by "deviants". There's a HUGE proportion of psychopaths drawn to leadership positions

I can't entirely disagree with this, but I would extend it beyond simply leadership positions. In fact, I would argue that both the military and the police are also paths that would seem attractive to sociopaths and psychopaths. I certainly don't share the common desire to venerate people in these positions simply because they are the military or the police. 

Do I think we benefit from 'wise and fair' leadership? Not at all. Power draws the weak, and that is a major failing of any hierarchical society. Always has been. Any modern election, say, in the UK (where I was born) and the US (where I live) often comes down to a decision between the lesser of two evils. 

I have a problem with your use of the word deviant, though. By definition (actions or behaviors that go against social norms or expectations) Plato, whom you quote, was a deviant. Most of those who have propelled the species forward have been deviants. It tales a deviant to push society's norms until they change. And it takes the norms to look at someone and denounce them as deviant. 

I would imagine this point does not need explaining to a group of us NDs. 

I Sperg said:

It's not hard to appear to be a troll to people who's inter cranial pressure is measured in torrs...

We are very much in a plato's cave situation in this thread, of course, well some of us are.

Name-calling and condescending comments, however erudite and witty you might think them, are no substitute for healthy debate. 

It's not hard to appear to be a troll to people who's inter cranial pressure is measured in torrs...

We are very much in a plato's cave situation in this thread, of course, well some of us are.

Sincerity is certainly not apparent anywhere in 'mainstream' politics these days - the system seems to have a self-selecting exclusionary clause against almost all forms of genuine sincerity.  Agreed.

Knowledge is a burden, I agree.  It is the burden of power (in my book) because (in my book) knowledge is power.  The burden aspect of this, is knowing how, or if, or when, to wield your power.  I note that you do so with restraint and grace.  This makes me happy, and gives me badly needed hope!

My words here on the other hand) make me want to vom, because, true sincerity is so out of vogue......its easier to lie, obfuscate or simply stay quiet....or to view sincerity from others as "smarm."

I am more than content to defer to your greater knowledge and competency in this particular arena.....ie I have no trouble accepting your opinion that.....

Pegg said:

Oh goodness me no - it's really not that complex. Rather it was the first idea they came up with that they thought might stick with Reform voters. 

.......is the primary driver behind their intentions.

This has all become a bit depressing for me tonight......I'm calling time on my involvement here this evening.  Disambiguation = nowt to do with this exchange with you......just the fact that my brain extrapolates and explores the avenues that are presented to it.

Have a restful evening Pegg.

Yours

Number.

Number said:

This youth conscription scheme is the best idea that this government (in it's last gasps of existence) could think of to try and mitigate these combined and growing problems......but

Oh goodness me no - it's really not that complex. Rather it was the first idea they came up with that they thought might stick with Reform voters. 

Derails have been added as they've thought of them. 

If we were foolish enough to give this 'pledge' credence, we'd discover to our cost how sincere it is. They've had 14 years in power - and where are we? 

Number said:

 You are self evidently more informed than most

Sadly, that is true. 

If I.could go back, I'd never walk through the gates. Knowledge is a burden. 

It won't surprise you to hear, that I couldn't be a member of one......I don't have enough common ground with ANYONE!

#TheCatWoman  fyi....Isperg is not a troll.

Furthermore, fwiw.....I don't consider Isperg "sad" in the sense you suggest and nor do I have any reason to suspect that he "gets off" on making others feel uncomfortable.  I do think he is different (as we all are) and a valued member of this community....in the round.

Viva la difference?! [In a "celebrate the differences" holistic sense, not the gendered sense.]

Challenging the views and language used by people here is one thing (very reasonable)......but personally attacking a members character here (especially a caring and long serving member here) is quite another matter.

#ISperg, .....fwiw....your choice of terminology was inflammatory and your grammar was scrappy and readily open to misinterpretation or over interpretation.  Accordingly, I have no idea what you were actually trying to convey in actuality......and, for the avoidance of doubt, please don't automatically assume that I do want you to clarifty matters.  This hot potato is a jumping bean, from the pan to the fire, with a sprinkling of TNT....whilst frying eggs in an excessively hot frying pan.......whilst only wearing pyjama bottoms.

Number said:

I don't want to be lynched by the mob over a misunderstanding!!......there are plenty of half reasonable reasons to lynch me if you want to...

There aren't any lynch mobs on this forum and if there were, I wouldn't be a member of one.

To be clear, I was speaking, specifically about this youth conscription thingy when I made that statement.

To be clearer, I have no doubt whatsoever, that lies have, and do, abound throughout politics......and that this period around "Boris times" can fairly be characterised as a time of especially profligate, pervasive, blatant and mind-numbingly stupid LIES.

I don't want to be lynched by the mob over a misunderstanding!!......there are plenty of half reasonable reasons to lynch me if you want to......but assuming that I am defending modern UK politics against a charge of "lies"...well, that would be a miscarriage of fairness.

Thank you Capatin Grover for extending me both forms of courtesy, reading all of my post, and commenting in an even handed and fair manner.  

I make no apology for expressing an unpopular opinion, in my defence, I keep it to a minimum and do my utmost to let other opinons that I find unpopular slide past without comment. I am often surprised when people take strong objections to some of my comments and start accusing me of being someone who I am not.

I unlike Debbie and many others here have a Y chromosome and some of othe other traits associated with Masculinity. To a masculine point of view, when actually doing a dangerous or arduous task "man-boys" are useless.

During my spell in service as a young "man-boy", I could see that quite clearly in addition to it being shouted at me, of course! AS an example of my own uselssness as a "man-boy" in a simualated war scenario I once managed to sleep though an enemy attack. I was vaguely aware of the explosions of thd thunderflashes etc, but no one specifically told me to get up and do something, it was happening soem distance away so I elected to stay alseep...  If I may say, without causing offence, (because I am complaining specifically about myself) "Bloody Useless!!"

I can't think that any of you really think that we benefit from wise and fair leadership, and that is simply because we are lead by "deviants". There's a HUGE proportion of psychopaths drawn to leadership positions, (According to Dr Hare the leader in the field of psychopathy) yet they comprise a tiny portion of the population.. We ARE and pretty much always have been led by deviants.  

I know what you mean by feeliing sullied by such repugnant views, you just have to make sure you have a good teflon coating to your aura and stay true to yourself and your beliefs. Ask yourself before reacting with horror and disgust, is this what the poster actually wants? Unfortunately some people get off on making others uncomfortable, it's sad and quite probably so are they, so don't feed the trolls, be a billy goat instead.

I'm staying. Someone needs to bring the sanity, and that's not what I'm often accused of. 

Stay. Fight the good fight. 

Captain Grover said:

When do we become the generation that doesn't piss on the generations below it? They live a different life to the one you lived. Stop judging them. 

Thank you

Captain Grover said:

Useless man-boys and deviants? Come on, man. That's some judgmental *** you're spouting there and, once again, harkening back to a time that never was. 

It's par for the course I'm sad to say.

I've left the forum a couple of times because of this and have only tentatively returned now as even interacting with people with these sorts of views makes me feel sullied.

Many others have left before for similar reasons (and not returned).

I hope you stay.

Iain said:

That will never work out for Gen-Z LOL

When do we become the generation that doesn't piss on the generations below it? They live a different life to the one you lived. Stop judging them. 

I Sperg said:

And regressive thinking is the opposite of the progressive thinking that produces the useless man-boys and deviants that currenlty hold sway over your thinking and "lead" our country.

You were winning me over until I read the above line. Useless man-boys and deviants? Come on, man. That's some judgmental *** you're spouting there and, once again, harkening back to a time that never was.