Elections and politics

I wonder what would happen if voting were mandatory and there was a "none of the above" option. I don't know what turnout of recent elections is like, but if we are talking of the population as a whole, the "majority" party are probably not often that. 

Very true. You only have to look at Weimar Germany to see the mess proportional representation can lead to 

I see your point but I dont believe we can effect change by voting when all the major parties are much of a muchness with similar motives

Billy87 said:

people seem to have lost their minds all over the world 

Quote of the day

Thank you! Nice to talk to you all again too

The thing with the Brexit refurendum was it became a Left v Right tribal issue which seemed incredibly stupid to me. Traditionally there are plenty of left wing people who did not want us to be part of the EU including Tony Benn and originally Jeremy Corbyn. Equally there are plenty of right wing people who supported the EU, including originally Boris Johnson. 
Sadly people in the UK pay to much attention to the media and frame their opinions based on what side they already support rather than evaluating the facts and then trying to come to a logical decision. I think that is our mentality as a country. I blame the tabloid media and more lately social media.

I would like to live somewhere that people try to logically come to the right decisions and can engage in reasoned debate even if they disagree. Im not sure any such country exists. Perhaps Switzerland is closest. I think Germany and Netherlands used to be such countries but sadly in the era of Twitter people seem to have lost their minds all over the world 

That is true here but not in Switzerland I believe. I think part of the problem here is we're not used to refurendums so when they happen everyone goes crazy. Also I think the politicians and media become very tribal and want us all to pick their side. It becomes more about which side wins rather than getting the right outcome

In Switzerland I believe it is far more matter of fact and about just asking people what they think and coming together for the best outcome for the country 

i think the corbyn crowd and his momentum are actually the extreme far left communists of the party.

which then make all the standard left socialists all look bad and confuse the issue. yeah your better off without those types.

starmers done a good job centering the party and making it suitable for everyone and got rid of the control of the extremist communists that would throw us all under a bus for their selfish ideology. 

and yeah they dont care about anything, those people they virtue signal and use things and lie about them for their own purposes and gains.

I'm more of a 'political animal' than the average person, but way of being a 'political nerd'(for want of a better phrase). I'm a member of the Labour party. Self define as a 'pragmatic socialist' . Voted for Yvette Cooper in 2015. Don't like the pro Corbyn, anti Starmer pseudo-socialists. They're quite happy to sacrifice the disabled and/or vulnerable in a quixotic quest for an ultra l/w utopia. They'd like Labour to be an ideologically pure perpetual protest party rather than one that can win an election and change things. I'll never understand the mentality of those who condemn Labour for not being left wing enough, and then are quite happy to enable a decidedly more r/w Tory party.

The current let's attack Labour and Starmer over Gaza bs really pees off. They don't give a flying f**k about those in Gaza, that's evidenced by sod all mention of Hamas and the Tories.

The problem with the referendum on leaving the EU (or the "Brexit referendum" - weighting already being put a certain way rather than using neutral language...) is that it was Cameron pandering after Farage and his followers. Maybe more referenda are a good idea but it has to be for the right reasons ie a better society, rather than garnering votes and favour.

Proportional representation isn’t a panacea though.

We have a form of proportional representation in the Scottish parliament but the result of that is the Scottish “Green Party” were allowed into coalition with the minority SNP govt. They had hardly any votes but were able to impose some very extreme and unpopular policies because the SNP needed their support. 

Meanwhile the majority of voters have been left completely unrepresented for 17 years now.

PS i put Green Party in quotes because the environment is very far down their list of priorities. This is a party that fell out with Green peace and the UK Green Party.

IIM, Can you explain to me what you mean by progress and '..traditional religious based social an moral values,.......society was built on Chrisitan values and principals'?

I like the idea of referenda more than the practice of them, mayve the Swiss are used to multiple referenda, but I don't think we are in this country. Having survived the whole Brexit thing and seen some of the hostility shouted at family members in the street, I think people here lack the critical thinking abilities to be able to have the country run by referenda and commitees. I'm also a bit dubious about commitees, I always remember the saying that a camel is a horse designed by commitee. Without more restraints on the press and social media I fear that more referenda would lead to less democracy not more. If you look at the sort of simplistic promises waved at the electorate before the Brexit vote, none of which were in reality that simple to do, then I think you can begin to see the difficulties. Even politicians such as David Davis didn't realise how complicated it would be, more fool him I think, he was in a position where he should have known.

I do agree that what this country has isn't really democracy, yes we get to vote for our leaders, but it feels more like choosing between bad and worse, the FPTP system dosen't allow for truely representative democracy, MP's have to choose between party and constituents. I'd like to see PR and more parties and independents and more cooperation between smaller parties.

In one way, given the many harsh lessons taught to us during Covid, I honestly feel and believe that the only way out of our current situation is to reject “progress” and as far as possible, is to return in as many ways as possible to traditional religious based social and moral values, reflecting the fact that our society was built on Christian values and principles - I know that this view is unpopular in today’s modern and secular society, but I honestly believe that we are rapidly reaching a point where we will have no other option but to do so and if we don’t do so now while we have the chance, when we are eventually forced to do so later on, that path will be far harsher and much more painful for us and future generations, with far more radical and drastic measures needing to be taken to do so later on, as time is not on our side - the stakes of failure to do so could not be higher at this point 

Being Irish and living 22 years in Labour controlled Manchester, I totally agree, but I also believe that the situation is much worse back home in Ireland from what I’ve heard from family and friends and from what I’ve seen on visits home to Ireland, especially post-Covid - Irish people since Covid are now very candid and frank about expressing thier views despite Ireland’s new hate speech laws as they know that the Irish government and the Gardai (police) hates them and wants rid of them, as Ireland has fallen far further, harder and faster than the U.K. ever has including since Covid 

out_of_step said:

And either of them are likely to get in if you don't vote.

Yep.

We aren't in Russia where voting means nothing or Afghanistan where if you are female  you are a prisoner.

Votes give us power to effect change.

I see it as a privilege of a genuinely democratic (ie not corrupted democracy) society and treasure it.

I do wish we had proportional representation though.

Amerantin said:

They are incredibly polarising and most people are utterly ignorant of the issues and fall prey misinformation.

+100!

Billy87 said:

Swiss have referundums over almost everything, giving the people the chance to decide what decisions are made for the country and therefore making the nation truly democratic

The Scottish independence referendum and the brexit referendum have put me off referenda for life.

They are incredibly polarising and most people are utterly ignorant of the issues and fall prey misinformation.

that sounds good. true democracy...

democracy and voting on every single policy, i said we need this so that they countries laws are each the peoples fault and choosing and they dont need to complain or riot they just need to vote for whatever law they want to be. if the majority vote a way some cry babies dont like then instead of whining or rioting which puts people off their thing anyway, they need to convince everyone their thing they want is good enough for everyone else to vote in.

I didn't know this about the Swiss......but I'm pleased to know it now.  Thanks Billy (and good to see you back!)

Yeah, there also seems to be a way of thinking that says if you are critical of MSM then you must be uncritical of you tube, bitchute etc.

The whole point of critical thiking skills is that you focus on the information and context, and "sort out the pepper from the flyshit".

What amazes and dismays me is how often the mainstream media nowadays lapses into utter fantasy.

I expect that from my fellow tinfoil hat wearing nutters, but we are all supposed to be able to RELY ON THE MSM. Journalistic integrity was once a real thing I am told.