Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction

Thanks Martin. 

Rereading my original post, I realise I was not clear. Focused effort - 

I have just finished one large project, and finished one job, and now, am weirdly, at the pits needing to build myself up again. Haven't been able to put the strands of a decade and a half in a coherent order, and seem back to the beginning again. (Apologies, that probably isn't that coherent.)

Yes. It’s posible to meet the ICD-11 definition and miss the (non-exhaustive) examples given in the dsm-5. There are a lot of people with Aspergers type autism who won’t fit well example 1 for instance. They’ll more or less cope with initiating a conversation often happily. It’s why so many people say to people with Aspergers ‘you don’t seem autistic’ because they converse just fine 90% of the time except maybe they give off a slightly ‘off’ vibe. And example 3 is kind of problematic as well because there are plenty of people with Aspergers like autism who have deficits in maintaining and forming relationships who are very friendly, imaginative, gregarious and by and large nice people, but again they give off that ‘creepy’ vibe.

There are going to be a lot of autistic people whose social skill issues stem mostly from nonverbal communication issues and difficulty following subtext and reading the room. Because the truth is you can be in the same ‘social context’, the same room with the same people, but they are in a different mood, and what was ok to say yesterday is going to cause a row today.

I have always needed lots of time on my own to recover from 'being sociable'. Getting the balance right is difficult, admittedly. Even at work I would take 15 to 20 minutes out and just sit at the top of staircases up to the roof, where no-one ever went, in order to be unavailable for social interactions for a while.

I and those around me tend to see my own utility as more "Quid erat demonstadum"...

Your writing above, prompts me to say "Quod erat demonstrandom" my friend.

Number said:

I take each individual comment on its merits, as I see them, and respond accordingly.

Yes absolutely! That’s really important to do.

Number said:

but struggle to accommodate myself within any particular brigade....I much prefer the one-to-one connections when they occur....and hang with a platoon of misfits and renegades who seem to be the same way. 

I prefer one to one connections, it’s great you have found people who are similar to you. Just because we are autistic doesn’t mean we will necessarily feel like we belong in the wider autistic community, we are a very diverse group of humans! That’s why we still need to find our own ‘pocket’ within the community.

 I certainly have and I am so glad you have too! I intend explore other autistic communities in the future too, particularly in person.

Some people (autistic or not) get more of their morals, ideals and understanding of behavioural norms from the people around them and others don't. I know autistic people who fit easily into social norms even though their social skills and adaptability aren't at NT level but I don't fit into social norms much at all and many norms rub me the wrong way. I think this affects how successful you are at having friends, etc. I am terrible for several reasons but also because I sabotage myself a bit with low self esteem patterns.

All these things are nonsense. The whole system is quite messed up with a capital F. Which is very unfortunate, but it is developing and should be better in around 100 years.

That's very kind, but You've not met me in person, and I believe I write about life better than I live it.

In my case I realised at age 11 that I had a mental problem of some sort (even though my trick cyclist said I had not) so I started doing the book learning earlier than most. 

I also benefitted hugely from a Christian moral education, and correctly identified my behaviour as unpleasant and self defeating, so by age 13 I was reading a bit of Jung, learning about how my subconcious and ego worked etc, and more importantly how to use the "features" of the human mind, rather than letting them use ME. 

All book learning and a smattering of observational skills, anyone could do it, BUT My circumstances (I.E. BLIND LUCK) forced me down that path. Most f what I covered was not so helpful, so I've tried to distil what I know into simple ideas and workarounds, many of which I find others have discovered.

Of course, lacking the proper basic training, my approach has been like trying to drink water form a fountain, and I only know a few useful things, which I try to pass on. 

An example being that I was FIRMLY living an incel life, until I boned up on how human social interactions actually work, (I'm not going to recommend that bloody book again, people must be sick of it by now) whilst learning the emotional side of "caring" by looking after my first cat. (after a couple of trial run of looking after other peoples cats) 

Still took some years to make me in anyway desirable to the fair sex (other than for friendzone, free taxi service, domestic repairs which I traded for food, as I hate cooking, etc.).

I still make the occasional blunder and gaffe, or simply express my harder side at the wrong time, but I am able to do basic human psychological transactions rather better than people who've not worked to improve themselves.

There are aspects of Autism that can be very troublesome as we all know, and it's very, very easy to say "This is who I am folks, like it or lump it" but I try to save that for last, rather than leading with it.  

 The army taught me that you CAN exceed your limitations sometimes, (not always) and it's better to have a go than not to know. 

EDIT *Note* despite all that psychological reading and the real and useful insights I did get, I still didn't know I had the Autismo until I hit 60.. 

I think, for what it's worth, that you underestimate your innate presence and self.

I learned it from a book, and from observation.

Complements not supplements.

I knew it didn't quite fit right.

And on that pedantic note, goodnight all.

I take each individual comment on its merits, as I see them, and respond accordingly.

I'm delighted to have found my overall tribe, but struggle to accommodate myself within any particular brigade....I much prefer the one-to-one connections when they occur....and hang with a platoon of misfits and renegades who seem to be the same way. 

I often find myself seeing eye-to-eye with Dawn ("so not" an autistic thing to do, apparently!)

So glad you agree too!

It sometimes feels as though people like me and Dawn whose views align with the neurodiversity paradigm are in a minority within our own community.

Very nicely put.  I do agree.

That’s great that you have found connections online as have I and I really appreciate them.

I also like online communities as written communication feels so much more natural to me than spoken.

out_of_step said:

but for a lot of people, this isn't the same as real human contact..

Yes I completely understand that, there is no real substitute for in person human connection!

I have found connections online in ways I never expected, and this supplements my real world contacts - I am lucky - but for a lot of people, this isn't the same as real human contact..  But yes this place is valuable. 

out_of_step said:

I think there is a degree of luck in finding your tribe.

Absolutely!

out_of_step said:

It's so hard as many people want connection but can't get it through no fault of their own.

Yes, that’s why online autistic communities like this one are so vitally important! Every human needs and deserves connection.

I think there is a degree of luck in finding your tribe. Someone said earlier about environment,  upbringing etc - there are a lot of factors. I think it *might* be easier for women as we generally are "more sociable". (It all comes at a cost). I am aware of men - autistic and non autistic in their middle years and beyond, who don't have friends. It must be harder even still if you are autistic. It's so hard as many people want connection but can't get it through no fault of their own.

Dawn said:

Try replacing the word "deficit" with "differece".

Damien Milton's double empathy problem is relevant here. Autistic people relate and communicate differently. It's just that we don't always get others and they don't always get

Thank you very much for highlighting this! I have been trying to convey that same point in this discussion for what feels like a very long time!

Dawn said:

I have friends I've had for decades. Some of them are other autistic people or are AD(H)D ( who generally atune to me), or are wonderful neurotypical people who like being around someone who thinks differently.

Absolutely! It’s about finding your tribe. I am so glad for you that you have found yours!