Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction

Try replacing the word "deficit" with "differece".

Damien Milton's double empathy problem is relevant here. Autistic people relate and communicate differently. It's just that we don't always get others and they don't always get us.

I have friends I've had for decades. Some of them are other autistic people or are AD(H)D ( who generally atune to me), or are wonderful neurotypical people who like being around someone who thinks differently.

I was married, have a magnificent son (who communicates in much the same way I do), and a boy-friend on the same wave length (pretty sure he's ADHD). 

I'm not deficient at all, I don't think. Just very different, which makes some relationships with some neurotypicals difficult or just exhausting, and other relationships easy, profound and fun.

A lot of autistic people who are lonely or who become social phobe, just have not been lucky enough to meet with acceptance of themselves with all they have to offer and may have met with rejection a time or two too many.

Peter said:

Oh absolutly but that mostly wouldn't be called social skills. Body doubeling is more a coping stratergy for poor executive function / focus. Neurotyicals also benifit from it just not as much. I mean isn't that what offices are? Aren't info dumps just mini lectures? Just people aren't used to adsorbing information that way in a small group. And paralel play happens every weekend in your city center, it's called window shoping. Or cafes. Why go to a coffee shop when your microwave can make a coffee at home? It's paralel play. comfort from spending lessure time in proximity to others. We are better at this but it isn't really a social skill. These are more lessure / learning / working skills.

Yes I absolutely agree, but that doesn't mean that one way of being is better than the other. Some of your points about offices and infodumping make logical sense.

This image describes my point perfectly:

Every human has strengths and weaknesses related to their neurology. That's the beauty of neurodiversity!

Ausomely Autistic said:

Equally, you could also argue that neurotypical individuals have ‘deficits’ in autistic social communication styles. For example, they use weird hints instead of using direct and honest communication. Neurotypical people are not naturally good at parallel play, body doubling or info dumping.

Oh absolutly but that mostly wouldn't be called social skills. Body doubeling is more a coping stratergy for poor executive function / focus. Neurotyicals also benifit from it just not as much. I mean isn't that what offices are? Aren't info dumps just mini lectures? Just people aren't used to adsorbing information that way in a small group. And paralel play happens every weekend in your city center, it's called window shoping. Or cafes. Why go to a coffee shop when your microwave can make a coffee at home? It's paralel play. comfort from spending lessure time in proximity to others. We are better at this but it isn't really a social skill. These are more lessure / learning / working skills.

I think its nessicery to accept being better at something some times means you will be worse at others.

Amerantin (former member) said:

But the simple harsh reality is we live in a world where the vast majority of people are neurotypical.

Absolutely! This is true, but that doesn’t mean the way we communicate is wrong or deficient.

But the simple harsh reality is we live in a world where the vast majority of people are neurotypical.

If I lived in Japan and was neurologically unable to ever learn Japanese, would you argue that was anything other than a life-impacting functional deficit?

Sorry, I don’t mean to be confrontational or insulting about this. I know we don’t all feel the same about it.

I think I should probably take a break for a while. I’m only bringing people down, and I know you’ve all been trying to help me.

Peter said:

I disagree. In so far as there is a set of skills neurotyicals typically have called social skills we (autistic people) have deficits in those skills

Equally, you could also argue that neurotypical individuals have ‘deficits’ in autistic social communication styles. For example, they use weird hints instead of using direct and honest communication. Neurotypical people are not naturally good at parallel play, body doubling or info dumping.

This s the foundation of the double empathy problem and is the reason why neurotypical people are not instinctively good at reading autistic emotions or expressions of empathy.

No way of being or communicating is better it’s just different! 

By describing one minority group of humans as having ‘deficits’ you automatically perceive them to be inferior as opposed to neurodivergent.

I disagree. In so far as there is a set of skills neurotyicals typically have called social skills we (autistic people) have deficits in those skills. Eye contact is a good example. Eye contact is difrent between cultures. In asia some cultures don't make much eye contact. Neurotyical people adapt naturaly to that as they aclimatise to the culture ... we don't, or at least it's not natural for us, we don't do it without realising usually.

There is a little circuit in their head that is scaning others behavior subconsciously and prompting them to copy it ... and in our heads that circuit doesn't work. That's both freeing and limiting. Our behaviour is more our own that others, but we are less able to predict and adapt to others behavior.

We are more able to take the paths they can't because they are constrained to follow the crowed ... but we are at risk of getting trampeled by that crowed.

Martin said:

making an effort does not always guarantee social success.

How to keep this focused effort going, though?

(Apologies, a yelp from the gutter.)

Snark alert - cant help it.. too funny.

I see Micheal Palin jump in right about here - The Inquisition sketch  -  "....there shall be 3, ..no 2 Bs, and a C no, C & D...no..",

the scene is a few NDs sitting upright in cozy chairs! who say "Wha,? We're talking about the time table for the local to Illustrative, your exhausting, piss off".

Extra points for falsetto in frumpy drag.

From ICD-11 (the international diagnostic criteria, as opposed to DSM which is US):

Autism spectrum disorder is characterised by persistent deficits in the ability to initiate and to sustain reciprocal social interaction and social communication, and by a range of restricted, repetitive…..

Diagnostic Requirements

Essential (Required) Features:

• Persistent deficits in initiating and sustaining social communication and reciprocal social interactions that are outside the expected range of typical functioning given the individual’s age and level of intellectual development. Specific manifestations of these deficits vary according to chronological age, verbal and intellectual ability, and disorder severity. Manifestations may include limitations in the following:
  • Understanding of, interest in, or inappropriate responses to the verbal or non-verbal social communications of others.
  • Integration of spoken language with typical complimentary non-verbal cues, such as eye contact, gestures, facial expressions and body language. These non-verbal behaviours may also be reduced in frequency or intensity.
  • Understanding and use of language in social contexts and ability to initiate and sustain reciprocal social conversations.
  • Social awareness, leading to behaviour that is not appropriately modulated according to the social context.
  • Ability to imagine and respond to the feelings, emotional states, and attitudes of others.
  • Mutual sharing of interests.
  • Ability to make and sustain typical peer relationships.

Peter said:

So yes all autistic people have issues with their social skills

No I don’t agree, please don’t generalise about an entire community. I don’t have ‘issues’ with socialising, I socialise and communicate differently as do all autistics.

The only reason why we are described as having issues with socialising is because there are more neurotypical people than us! We are purely described like this because we are a minority group-

I'm sorry to say that's something that one particular doctor has just made up. (in the sence it's not in the dsm-5) I just pulled a copy on my universities library server to check. It doesn't make sence to say you have to meet every condition in a list that is 'illustrative' and 'not exhaustive.'

I agree the wording is slightly ambiguous, but here’s a clarification from the Embrace Autism site:

embrace-autism.com/.../

When I speak to people I assess, I explain that the DSM-5 criteria that you need to fulfill consist of 3 As, 2 Bs, and C, D & E.

It then goes on to say all three of the criteria I quoted are required.

I think you've miss quoted the DSM-5? That's only a list of examples of catagory A I think. In order to diagnose with ASD catagories A through E all need to be satisfies.

The general text for catagory A is "A. Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive, see text):" And below it the list you quote.

So yes all autistic people have issues with their social skills but they aren't forced to fit with those 3 examples. It is posible to have good relationships with poor social skills if your friends learn to tolerate you being really blunt and ocasionaly socially inappropreat. Maybe some people are just so interesting, witty or atractive that people don't care that they don't make eye contact and are always getting the wrong end of the stick, speaking out of turn or saying the wrong thing. etc.

For now, perhaps.  Is that bleak = yes.  Is that an immoveable reality = no.  Do these words help you = No.  Does that mean I shouldn't say the words = no.  Have I ever felt as low as you seem to be feeling now = yes.  Did things swing around for me = yes...eventually.  Will things swing back and smash me in the face again soon = probably.

Ironically enough, for me, it was when I had decided I could (and would have to) live without proper or adequate human connection, that I started to find some ?!  Go figure !?  Cruel Irony....or self fulfilling prophesy?  When I felt "desperate" to connect to humans, I think most humans couldn't fathom my 'intensity' and so ran for the hills.

I started to "make do" with nominal and ad hoc random interactions with the world and that built my confidence that I do belong within it and do have a CONNECTED part to play within it.  From those very unpromising "seeds" of connection, some mighty saplings have grown !

Dude - all I'm saying is that, in my opinion and experience (not just my own, but watching the lives of others around me twist and turn with fate).........

HOPE

S P R I N G S

E     T       E      R      N      A       L 

As did I. It took me quite a long time to come to terms with that and I couldn't believe that there was absolutely no support available. It seems that when we're deemed 'high functioning' there is an (incorrect) assumption that it applies to all areas of life. That's partly why I hate that term so much.

Your current mood may be a reaction to the therapy ending. I don't have that much experience of therapy, aside from the pretty useless standard stuff offered on the NHS. However it really shouldn't leave you feeling in a worse state than before you started. I would have thought that the role of the therapist was to help with the areas you actually needed support with.

It is not true that there are no further avenues to explore, only that you may not necessarily know what they are yet. You are only part way through the process of accepting your diagnosis and yourself. Once you understand yourself you will be in a better position to present that self to others. Much of your previous experience of socialising will have happened before you became aware of being autistic.

Today is blue Monday and tomorrow is a new day.

That’s a shame.
What about joining another online community for people who are similar to you/feel isolated in the same way?

I can’t feel anything but broken - I desperately need human connection but I am denied it.

That may well be true. 

I knew there wasn’t going to be a magic wand that would magically fix my problems but I hoped that I might get some sort of support or guidance.

But my therapy sessions ended last week and this was an issue my therapist really didn’t want to get too close to anyway. So now I’m really back where I was before diagnosis but with even less hope and no further avenues to explore.

Only tenuously. It’s not the same as having real people in your life, and finding just that so many people here don’t share my core problem is probably making me feel worse about myself.