Unnecessary anxiety??

Why is not the same parallel made with Russia protracted over a much longer period of time. Seems like a double standard to me, and what about China and the Uyghurs, no big fuss made about those people---double standards again. Why?---because where there is money to be made, blinded oversight seems to kick in.

Please do not Imply Israels actions are similar to what the *** did . I find that extremely wrong and offensive

Cheers !

NAS86592 said:

I am trying to raise the point that your particular perception, and the perceptions of both past and present experts on this matter may not be a Q.E.D. as it is all a matter of interpretation

On this we agree. Thank you for being rational and discussing openliy on what is a sensitive subject for many.

I don't necessarily disagree with this particular conclusion. I have the time but not the inclination to delve into all the available data to develope my own conclusion.  I am trying to raise the point that your particular perception, and the perceptions of both past and present experts on this matter may not be a Q.E.D. as it is all a matter of interpretation.

On that note I will quietly tip toe away.

NAS86592 said:

this whole topic is in a superposition of many possible inputs at that time and is a rediculous waste of time to speculate on

There I feel we have to disagree.

There are plenty of facts at our disposal on the history of the situation and the behaviours of both sides. While the reasons for the origin are typically dubious and murky (from a political perspective) the actions of all sides speak volumes through the years.

Time and again each side has committed terrible crimes in the claim of self defence and called in aid from friendly powers (Iran for Palestine and USA for Israel in the latest round) to supply them with the tools to slaughter civilians and combatants alike.

All this is is clear view but each side only wants us to see the latest round of how terribly they suffered without noticing the terrible acts they did last month / last year etc. This is their knee jerk reaction and one you are parroting.

I honestly don't know what a solution looks like for them now but it appears a form of genocide of the Palestinian population is an appealing solution for Israel at the moment.

I was highlighting that this is a case of the abused becoming the abuser in plain sight and with the support of the USA.

I don't think our reaction here is knee jerk but looking at the bigger picture as the media is strongly influenced in favour of the latest vitctim at any point in time.

this whole topic is in a superposition of many possible inputs at that time and is a rediculous waste of time to speculate on.

That is why it is a "knee jerk reaction"  You said it yourself --- "We have no possible way to see back--------"

NAS86592 said:

So why as a "knee Jerk" reaction do you make these presumptions?

Can you explain what you see as a knee jerk here please? An honest question as there is a lot we have talked about.

NAS86592 said:

I am tired; tired of having continual rejection of my efforts to integrate, so I gave up,

Have you considered sharing what your efforts to integrate look like here?

It is possible that these are not working well and we may be able to offer advice on how to tweak them to work better for you.

Giving up will probably only annoy the locals further so it could be worth a try.

So why as a "knee Jerk" reaction do you make these presumptions?

Iain said:

We have no possible way to see back through the mists of history to see whether aggressive influence was used or not so your arguement that there was no pressure on them is unsupportable,

NAS86592 said:

The Israeli state took an oath: Never again !!  

As I pointed out earlier - the abused have armed themselves to the teeth and are now becoming the abuser.

Why do their neighbours hate them so much? It isn't simpy because they have a different faith and are living in peace and harmony with their neighbours?

OK initially there was animosity that the occupying power of the British chose to give away land that was not theirs to a special interest group with very dubious claims to the land - that would have made any occupation tricky.

Over time it was the duty of the Israelli state to convince the locals that they were not bad people, that they wanted peace and would not try to steal more land that was not theirs to take.

Things have escalated time and time again to the point where this mind set of "never again" has set in and the only solution is to evict all the rightful residents as their (legitimate) presence is unacceptable since they are fighting back against repeated human rights abuses.

The state no longer cares that is is the abuser - it has the support of the USA (I saw today they claimed to have Israels back no matter what) so can commit any atrocities and get away with it.

NAS86592 said:

"NOBODY twisted the arms of all the UN members i

Do you understand how influencers and lobbyists work? It appears not.

They exist to exert pressure, influence and motivation for those voting on a subject to vote a particular way.

We have no possible way to see back through the mists of history to see whether aggressive influence was used or not so your arguement that there was no pressure on them is unsupportable,

Everyone owed a debt to the allies for winning the war and restoring peace to the world so when the top powers proposed this plan then the rest were pretty obligated to go along with it.

From other info I quoted on this thread it was apparent that the early version of the Israelli Lobby were hard at work in the British government for decades and now had the biggest possible opportunity for a sympathy vote in light of the treatment of jews by the Axis powers, so it seems unthinkable that they would not use every tool in the book to try to force this vote through.

Can you provide a good rational otherwise?

I don't like woke because it has created another layer on top of the already nonsensical, impositional hoop of political correctness we are expected to jump through to sanctify a minority of thin skinned people. I was brought up in a world where a democratic  majority rules. We can still respect each other WITHOUT all this other unnecessary nonsense.

Despite influencers and lobbyists etc,etc.I repeat :

"NOBODY twisted the arms of all the UN members in 1948 to agree on the creation of the state of Israel (perhaps God did)"  They all still had their own capacity to also "draw their own conclusions" It's called taking responsibility for the outcome of your actions.

The new Israeli state then set about seizing their neighbours’ land, denying them their basic human rights and even denying they exist. Sound familiar?

No government is infallible. I return to my earlier comment not as a justification but as a reality check for a people who after surviving Nazism --- globally there are only 14mil.today --- and with the creation of the Israeli state:  " when a country is surrounded by neighbours who do not want it to be there, it has no choice but  to arm itself to its teeth as a show not to be messed with." The Israeli state took an oath: Never again !!  

Point taken.  One would think that at my age of 78 a lifetime of wisdom would have subdued my anxieties by now---it has not, and I am tired; tired of having continual rejection of my efforts to integrate, so I gave up, It's just me on the spectrum. I did try.

I agree with Kate. I cried at the news for both 'sides'. I don't really like the words sides. 

NAS86592 said:

NOBODY twisted the arms of all the UN members in 1948 to agree on the creation of the state of Israel (perhaps God did)

en.wikipedia.org/.../Mandate_for_Palestine
The Balfour Declaration was a public statement issued by the British government in 1917 during the First World War announcing its support for the establishment of a "national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine
...
The declaration was contained in a letter dated 2 November 1917 from the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour to Lord Rothschild, a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland.
...
within two months a memorandum was circulated to the Cabinet by a Zionist Cabinet member, Herbert Samuel, proposing the support of Zionist ambitions in order to enlist the support of Jews in the wider war.

Britain had control over Palestine before and after WW2 which is why it was so central in creating this and encouraging the League of Nations to adopt it.

Looking through the detail around this, it looks as if there were a lot of jewish players influencing politicians throughout the process - an early version of the Jewish Lobby probably.

Am I adding 2 and 2 to get 5? I don't know but do your own research and draw your own conclusions.

Joe said:

Make friends with your neighbours or the other Jewish folks in your village.

Here in Brazil there is a very large Jewish and arabic community and there is incredibly little animosity between the two of them (except when they are claiming who makes the best hummus...) which shows it is not a religion thing.

The constant flag waving of "poor persecuted Jews" is just trying to detract from the fact the abused have become the abusers, but with the support of the USA to the tune of billions of dollars a year plus the famous "jewish lobby" in US politics that is surprisingly influential ( en.wikipedia.org/.../Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States ).

I think that an extension of this is that jewish people start to imagine the slightest issue against them is because they are jewish, not because they did anything wrong, don't integrate into the community for some reason (eg the community is inbred and closed minded), because someone was having a bad day or whatever.

I think the consensus here is that the behaviour the OP is receiving is probably going to happen to any outsider in that community, especially if they try to play the antisemitism card over it.

My advice to fit in is to stop making it about you, try to find friends in the community through which you can be known for your actions, your personality and the contributions you make to the community and accept that there are plenty of village idiots in your neighbourhood.