PDA, or Sticking to principles

I wasn't thinking just about individual relationships, but group interactions too, if you've been chased around school by a hunting pack of bullies and every break time is spent avoiding them and everytime you go to or leave school there they are again, how do you not internalise the feeling that there's something really wrong with your existance?

In intimate realtionships I think things can become worse over time, behaviours that in the early days that seemed comforting and protective, later seem to be controlling and manipulative, or people just change as they get older. Its a bit daft to expect someone not to change over the course of a decade or two or even less.

But, for myself I've started to ask myself what role I play in these abusive relationships and situations, as after all I'm the common denominator. I realised I do pick friends and lovers badly, that there are certain things that should be red flags, for example in intimate relationships one should be, 'I've never met anyone like you before', they probably haven't, but all the things they initially like about me will be things that eventually break the relationship. I tend to choose friends who are needy, I've learnt to back off from those.

TheCatWoman said:

If you've been treated as inadaquate, inept and inhibited and probably bullied for it too, why would you engage the activities that are going to cause more of the same and make it a self fulfilling prophese

For many people it is down to two things as far as I can see:

1 - they started out in a healthier relationship and it has become worse over time. A bit like the addage that if you put a frog in a pot of hot water it will jump out, but put it in cold water and slowly heat it, the frog will stay in and cook.

2 - from the persons perspective, this is the least bad option. Being along either isn't tolerable or affordable or change aversion stops them from leaving the few comforts they have.

These are very simplified versions but I think it carries the jist.

Not in my experience. Quite the opposite really. But that might be because of the job I do. I would say the majority of the population have never heard of PDA let alone have any idea what it means or be able to use it against someone. I don't think an NT person could use PDA against someone so as to use cohersive control as that would just be complete admission that you weren't trying to meet the needs of the PDA person at all.

If you've been treated as inadaquate, inept and inhibited and probably bullied for it too, why would you engage the activities that are going to cause more of the same and make it a self fulfilling prophesey?

Iain said:

Avoidant Personality Disorder

Thank for you posting this, it’s very interesting. I clicked the link and checked out the information there and it’s quite easy to see how closely matched autism and AVPD are. I think I could relate to a lot of those symptoms of AVPD myself.  

TheCatWoman said:

PDA is one of those terms I have problems with

I just remembered there is also Avoidant Personality Disorder that has similar characteristics

from https://neurodivergentinsights.com/avoidant-personality-disorder-vs-autism/

List of symptoms from the DSM-5

1.  Avoids occupational activities that involve significant interpersonal contact because of fears of criticism, disapproval, or rejection.

2.  Is unwilling to get involved with people unless certain of being liked.

3.  Shows restraint within intimate relationships because of the fear of being shamed or ridiculed.

4.  Is preoccupied with being criticized or rejected in social situations.

5.  Is inhibited in new interpersonal situations because of feelings of inadequacy.

6.  Views self as socially inept, personally unappealing, or inferior to others.

7.  Is unusually reluctant to take personal risks or to engage in any new activities because they may prove embarrassing.

Other criteria for a diagnosis of avoidant personality disorder is that it must be present since early adulthood and occur in multiple contexts (work, home, social, school, etc.).

Life is complicated sometimes.

I wonder if its being used as a tool to have power over people? Like if someone asks you to do something they know you don't like and you say, 'no thanks', or even, 'no, why are you asking me again when you know the answer will be no?' is it you or them thats being unreasonable? PDA sounds like an accusation that is covering someones attempts at cohersive control, someone who's NT will be able to use something like this to validate their behaviour and invalidate your's and people will be more likely to believe the NT person, as they're "normal".

I agree it must be hell for people who really have this condition.

I think the term PDA is being over used. The slightest bit of demand avoidance is being coined as that term or as you describe other reasons for avoiding demands are being put in that category. I don't think deciphering between the two is easy, there can be so many reasons people may avoid demands. But it is also important not to take away from the experience of those that are truly PDA as I cannot imagine how difficult that must be to live with 24/7.

Thanks EP, my fear is that PDA is suffering from mission creep and that perfectly normal behaviours are being pathologised. PDA is a term I here bandied around and I wonder if those doing the accusing are trying to make ND people feel less valid, that how they think and feel are somehow less valid, especially if they disagree with the professional who's using such terms.

I might say no to doing something I enjoy, because I need to do something else first, being hassled to do it will make me stressed and anxious, and angry too. For example I may refuse to do something, because I need to go shopping and we have no dog food, or I may need to go and pick up a prescription and if I don't do it and get it made up I won't have my meds. I don't think these things are unreasonable, but they seem to be seen as unresonable by the person asking, the person asking isn't the one who's responsible for the shopping or collecting meds. It feels like when you're female and ND and an NT man asks you to do something everything must be dropped so as you can "go and be spontaneous".

TheCatWoman said:

I find difficult about many ND people is the black and white thinking,

This is one of my biggest failings. I didn't know about it till I saw something on cognitive distortions a few months ago. It can be an attribute in some work settings, such a regulatory, standards and protocol areas where there can only be one right answer, but is not so helpful in life.

youtu.be/GSRurCJYvAI

My understanding is that PDA is very different to sticking to principles and that the anxiety of a demand is the same severity as a panic attack. It isn't just about things you feel strongly about. It is any kind of demand, including things like come and eat your breakfast. It even stretches to things the person wants to do but once they are told do it, it feels like a demand and then they feel unable to do the thing they enjoy.

All humans can be demand avoidant when it is something they fear or do not like and I think this is particularly common with neurodivergent folk. I think this is more what you are describing in your example. Saying no because you don't want to do a thing or feel strongly against the thing is a different issue. I think neurodivergency makes saying no in these situations more common because a lot of us (certainly not all) are less likely to be confirming to social norms. This, however, is very different to PDA. The fear and panic in PDA is from the demand itself no matter how small it actually enjoyable the demand may be. It is not to do with anxiety or a dislike of the thing itself.

I certainly couldn't speak for whether you yourself have PDA. I don't know enough about you. But the example you've described doesn't say PDA to me because it is simply something you wouldn't want to do. I'm also pretty stubborn when it comes to something like that. Think about something you really enjoy - if someone told you you had to go and do that thing right now would you be excited or filled with anxiety and your brain shut down to a no. If you would be excited, it is unlikely you have PDA. Now I've massively over simplified that as obviously someone with autism may need processing time etc to be able to go and do the thing they enjoy and that is different to PDA as it is about routine and planning and not about the demand itself. It's a complex condition so I'm just trying to break it down to show the difference. Sorry if I've made it more confusing.

One of the things I find difficult about many ND people is the black and white thinking, mind many NT's are as bad, having been pushed to the margins of society since childhood, I started to enjoy the margins, the liminal, I rarely ever think in black and white, to me most things are shades of grey.

I don't see my principles as being detrimental to others, but they can be for me, as I often won't go for knee jerk popular and populist solutions, this had got me into trouble more than once. But with something like capital punishment it's not really something I have to deal with on a day to day basis, this country abolished capital punishment in the 1960's, I would fight to keep it abolished.

I'm much less bothered about what others think of me than a lot of other people, obviously I'd prefer to be liked than disliked as it makes life easier. I will agree to differ with people, but unfortunately other seem less able to do this. I have more problems from the things I cannot do for health reasons than principles, for example I don't drink alcohol, I've not been able to since menopause, but I get so much stick for it. Amoung my generation not drinking alcohol is likely to get you shouted at, your drink spiked and all sorts of nastiness, about the best of which is being laughed at for supposedly having "the clap" and being on anti-biotics. I get similar stuff about being vegetarian, people don't seem to want to accept that I can't digest animal protein and eating it causes days or weeks of digestive upsets. I sometimes wonder what came first, my social phobia or being sick and tired of having to explain myself to the ignorant?

TheCatWoman said:

you said I fought harder because of my autistic PDA and a knee jerk cPTSD reaction, thats a pretty big statement when you think about it, there are assumptions there

I was basing this off other conversations we have had in the past where you talked about your cPTSD responses to situations and it seemed probable to me that this would play a part in the drivers for your response.

TheCatWoman said:

Is it only ASC people that have PDA?

No. NTs can also have this condition but it is an autistic trait so has higher occurrance within autists than NTs.

TheCatWoman said:

What do you believe principles to be? What I pick up from reading your posts is that you see them as something holding us back and generally a bad thing

It is not the principles themselves that matter to me these days - I have been a very principled person in the past  and it often caused me problems with a society that was much less rigid in its thinking.

I have learned to see life it all of its shades of grey and realise that holding strong principles is a choice which has its negatives. Such absolutism causes detriment to others but those expressing these principles will often turn a blind eye to it.

There is no real answer to whether principles are right or wrong, only a perspective and one that comes at a price.

It was meant to open a Pandora's Box of arguements, I think we are in danger of pathologising perfectly normal behaviour, such as likes and dislikes.

In your second point you said I fought harder because of my autistic PDA and a knee jerk cPTSD reaction, thats a pretty big statement when you think about it, there are assumptions there, the first being that I have PDA, the second that autistic people have PDA. I think that whole point needs unpacking.

Is it only ASC people that have PDA?

Does being autistic mean one can't have strong thoughts, beliefs and principles that may not be majority opinions without having PDA.

What do you believe principles to be? What I pick up from reading your posts is that you see them as something holding us back and generally a bad thing

I'm surprised you seem reluctant to engage with this subject. I thought it would be right up your street, I thought it would be an interesting conversation to have with someone who's very rational, when I'm more instinctual.

TheCatWoman said:

So do you believe me to have PDA, or is it that you disagree with me and a lable such as PDA is a conveinient excuse for you not to take my arguement seriously?

If you noted, I made no comment on the arguement itself. I only considered the motivations that contributed to your choice.

TheCatWoman said:

At what point do we become able to say 'No, I don't want that', whether its baked beans or the death penalty?

That opens a whole Pandoras box of ethical arguements.

I believe it comes down to making a choice.

Previously on another post you talked about plants having feelings but you chose to carry on eating them as you need to eat something. Here you made a choice in spite of there being some evidence to your choice causing suffering.

I think it comes down to what we are willing to tolerate - where we choose to draw the line.

Be it beans or be it death - you have at some point processed the pros and cons and made a decision and that becomes your default option going forward.

Iain, I'm going to answer your points one by one, please don't think I'm berating you because I disagree, because I'm not, I hope we can have a robust discussion.

1, I don't follow rules unless I see a good reason for them, many are obvious, some seem totally arbitrary, I think a lot of ND people feel like this.

2,Totally disagree with it being a PDA, cPTSD response and my kness were not jerking, I just don't believe that executing people is right, either morally or from a law and order perspective. The process and rituals of execution are hidious and I seriously wonder about the sort of people who willing take part in the process. There's also no evidence that the death penalty deter's crime, in countries where there is the death penalty, crime rates are just as high or higher.

3, I've seen to many miscarriages of justice to believe that execution is the answer, The Birmingham Six, The Guildford Four are tow examples where had capital punishment it would have been used and if it had where would they have got any justice and a postumous pardon is a bit late.

4,I am stubborn, but I didn't decide on my objection to capital punishement on a whim, it's been well thought out over a long period of time.

So do you believe me to have PDA, or is it that you disagree with me and a lable such as PDA is a conveinient excuse for you not to take my arguement seriously? Like I say I'm not trying to berate you, but this question is at the very heart of what this thread is about. Unlike some I didn't acquire principles from others, like a religion or something, but thought about what is right and wrong from my perspective, I know others will disagree with me sometimes and thats OK, but if you're going to disagree, then give me a reason, give me something well thought out and passionate, not a vague semi diagnosis.

At what point do we become able to say 'No, I don't want that', whether its baked beans or the death penalty? 

Is someone who dislikes baked beans exhibiting PDA or a dietry preference?

If someone who dislikes baked beans is showing a dietry preference, then why is being against the death penalty not a criminal justice preference?

TheCatWoman said:

I'm totally and absolutely against it

I suspect there is a combination of factors in play here

1 - autistic rule following. The law says no and you were supporting this.

2 - your friends tried to make you change your mind so your autistic PDA combined with some knee jerk cPTSD response at being bullied meant you fought even harder.

3 - your humanitarian principles were cheerleeding from the sidelines

4 - sometimes good old human stubborness gets involved too.

If I'm autplaining (autism over explaining) this then I apologise, 

That’s quite a controversial topic isn’t it, well done for standing your ground though, nothing wrong with difference in opinion. 

I don't follow principles blindly, of course the ambulance can park whereever it needs too.

I was thinking of something like when I had a disareement with a coule of friends about the death penalty, I'm totally and absolutely against it, they were not and things got quite heated, they really tried to bully me into agreeing with them, but I stood my ground.

TheCatWoman said:

Sticking to principles can be nerve wracking and anxiety producing, especially when others around you disagree equally as strongly.

How do you cope when the principles you are fighting so had to maintain turn out to be unsuitable for the situation?

For example, a slightly extreme example, if you were a traffic warden and saw a van parked on double yellow lines and decided to clamp the wheel - would you do this if it was an ambulance picking up someone involved in a road accident?

Rules are rules - clamp the ambulance and it is their fault for parking on a double yellow. Reality says it should be an exception as the life is more important than the parking rule. Which one wins?

Life is much more nuanced so is it really worth sticking so hard to the rules without taking time to consider all the angles? 

I think it took me to my 30s to get over the rigidity of following principles blindly.