PDA, or Sticking to principles

PDA is anxiety based from what I know, expectations even ones you have for yourself can be overwhelming and cause severe anxiety and panic. I suppose like ASD there are levels of it perhaps? Some cases more extreme than others. Other neurodivergent conditions like ADHD added to the mix would be like a bomb going off in your head I would imagine.

Sticking to principles can be nerve wracking and anxiety producing, especially when others around you disagree equally as strongly.

TheCatWoman said:

Sticking to principles can be nerve wracking and anxiety producing, especially when others around you disagree equally as strongly.

How do you cope when the principles you are fighting so had to maintain turn out to be unsuitable for the situation?

For example, a slightly extreme example, if you were a traffic warden and saw a van parked on double yellow lines and decided to clamp the wheel - would you do this if it was an ambulance picking up someone involved in a road accident?

Rules are rules - clamp the ambulance and it is their fault for parking on a double yellow. Reality says it should be an exception as the life is more important than the parking rule. Which one wins?

Life is much more nuanced so is it really worth sticking so hard to the rules without taking time to consider all the angles? 

I think it took me to my 30s to get over the rigidity of following principles blindly.

TheCatWoman said:

I find difficult about many ND people is the black and white thinking,

This is one of my biggest failings. I didn't know about it till I saw something on cognitive distortions a few months ago. It can be an attribute in some work settings, such a regulatory, standards and protocol areas where there can only be one right answer, but is not so helpful in life.

youtu.be/GSRurCJYvAI

One of the things I find difficult about many ND people is the black and white thinking, mind many NT's are as bad, having been pushed to the margins of society since childhood, I started to enjoy the margins, the liminal, I rarely ever think in black and white, to me most things are shades of grey.

I don't see my principles as being detrimental to others, but they can be for me, as I often won't go for knee jerk popular and populist solutions, this had got me into trouble more than once. But with something like capital punishment it's not really something I have to deal with on a day to day basis, this country abolished capital punishment in the 1960's, I would fight to keep it abolished.

I'm much less bothered about what others think of me than a lot of other people, obviously I'd prefer to be liked than disliked as it makes life easier. I will agree to differ with people, but unfortunately other seem less able to do this. I have more problems from the things I cannot do for health reasons than principles, for example I don't drink alcohol, I've not been able to since menopause, but I get so much stick for it. Amoung my generation not drinking alcohol is likely to get you shouted at, your drink spiked and all sorts of nastiness, about the best of which is being laughed at for supposedly having "the clap" and being on anti-biotics. I get similar stuff about being vegetarian, people don't seem to want to accept that I can't digest animal protein and eating it causes days or weeks of digestive upsets. I sometimes wonder what came first, my social phobia or being sick and tired of having to explain myself to the ignorant?

TheCatWoman said:

you said I fought harder because of my autistic PDA and a knee jerk cPTSD reaction, thats a pretty big statement when you think about it, there are assumptions there

I was basing this off other conversations we have had in the past where you talked about your cPTSD responses to situations and it seemed probable to me that this would play a part in the drivers for your response.

TheCatWoman said:

Is it only ASC people that have PDA?

No. NTs can also have this condition but it is an autistic trait so has higher occurrance within autists than NTs.

TheCatWoman said:

What do you believe principles to be? What I pick up from reading your posts is that you see them as something holding us back and generally a bad thing

It is not the principles themselves that matter to me these days - I have been a very principled person in the past  and it often caused me problems with a society that was much less rigid in its thinking.

I have learned to see life it all of its shades of grey and realise that holding strong principles is a choice which has its negatives. Such absolutism causes detriment to others but those expressing these principles will often turn a blind eye to it.

There is no real answer to whether principles are right or wrong, only a perspective and one that comes at a price.

It was meant to open a Pandora's Box of arguements, I think we are in danger of pathologising perfectly normal behaviour, such as likes and dislikes.

In your second point you said I fought harder because of my autistic PDA and a knee jerk cPTSD reaction, thats a pretty big statement when you think about it, there are assumptions there, the first being that I have PDA, the second that autistic people have PDA. I think that whole point needs unpacking.

Is it only ASC people that have PDA?

Does being autistic mean one can't have strong thoughts, beliefs and principles that may not be majority opinions without having PDA.

What do you believe principles to be? What I pick up from reading your posts is that you see them as something holding us back and generally a bad thing

I'm surprised you seem reluctant to engage with this subject. I thought it would be right up your street, I thought it would be an interesting conversation to have with someone who's very rational, when I'm more instinctual.

TheCatWoman said:

So do you believe me to have PDA, or is it that you disagree with me and a lable such as PDA is a conveinient excuse for you not to take my arguement seriously?

If you noted, I made no comment on the arguement itself. I only considered the motivations that contributed to your choice.

TheCatWoman said:

At what point do we become able to say 'No, I don't want that', whether its baked beans or the death penalty?

That opens a whole Pandoras box of ethical arguements.

I believe it comes down to making a choice.

Previously on another post you talked about plants having feelings but you chose to carry on eating them as you need to eat something. Here you made a choice in spite of there being some evidence to your choice causing suffering.

I think it comes down to what we are willing to tolerate - where we choose to draw the line.

Be it beans or be it death - you have at some point processed the pros and cons and made a decision and that becomes your default option going forward.

Iain, I'm going to answer your points one by one, please don't think I'm berating you because I disagree, because I'm not, I hope we can have a robust discussion.

1, I don't follow rules unless I see a good reason for them, many are obvious, some seem totally arbitrary, I think a lot of ND people feel like this.

2,Totally disagree with it being a PDA, cPTSD response and my kness were not jerking, I just don't believe that executing people is right, either morally or from a law and order perspective. The process and rituals of execution are hidious and I seriously wonder about the sort of people who willing take part in the process. There's also no evidence that the death penalty deter's crime, in countries where there is the death penalty, crime rates are just as high or higher.

3, I've seen to many miscarriages of justice to believe that execution is the answer, The Birmingham Six, The Guildford Four are tow examples where had capital punishment it would have been used and if it had where would they have got any justice and a postumous pardon is a bit late.

4,I am stubborn, but I didn't decide on my objection to capital punishement on a whim, it's been well thought out over a long period of time.

So do you believe me to have PDA, or is it that you disagree with me and a lable such as PDA is a conveinient excuse for you not to take my arguement seriously? Like I say I'm not trying to berate you, but this question is at the very heart of what this thread is about. Unlike some I didn't acquire principles from others, like a religion or something, but thought about what is right and wrong from my perspective, I know others will disagree with me sometimes and thats OK, but if you're going to disagree, then give me a reason, give me something well thought out and passionate, not a vague semi diagnosis.

At what point do we become able to say 'No, I don't want that', whether its baked beans or the death penalty? 

Is someone who dislikes baked beans exhibiting PDA or a dietry preference?

If someone who dislikes baked beans is showing a dietry preference, then why is being against the death penalty not a criminal justice preference?

TheCatWoman said:

I'm totally and absolutely against it

I suspect there is a combination of factors in play here

1 - autistic rule following. The law says no and you were supporting this.

2 - your friends tried to make you change your mind so your autistic PDA combined with some knee jerk cPTSD response at being bullied meant you fought even harder.

3 - your humanitarian principles were cheerleeding from the sidelines

4 - sometimes good old human stubborness gets involved too.

If I'm autplaining (autism over explaining) this then I apologise, 

TheCatWoman said:

I'm totally and absolutely against it

I suspect there is a combination of factors in play here

1 - autistic rule following. The law says no and you were supporting this.

2 - your friends tried to make you change your mind so your autistic PDA combined with some knee jerk cPTSD response at being bullied meant you fought even harder.

3 - your humanitarian principles were cheerleeding from the sidelines

4 - sometimes good old human stubborness gets involved too.

If I'm autplaining (autism over explaining) this then I apologise, 

TheCatWoman said:

I find difficult about many ND people is the black and white thinking,

This is one of my biggest failings. I didn't know about it till I saw something on cognitive distortions a few months ago. It can be an attribute in some work settings, such a regulatory, standards and protocol areas where there can only be one right answer, but is not so helpful in life.

youtu.be/GSRurCJYvAI

One of the things I find difficult about many ND people is the black and white thinking, mind many NT's are as bad, having been pushed to the margins of society since childhood, I started to enjoy the margins, the liminal, I rarely ever think in black and white, to me most things are shades of grey.

I don't see my principles as being detrimental to others, but they can be for me, as I often won't go for knee jerk popular and populist solutions, this had got me into trouble more than once. But with something like capital punishment it's not really something I have to deal with on a day to day basis, this country abolished capital punishment in the 1960's, I would fight to keep it abolished.

I'm much less bothered about what others think of me than a lot of other people, obviously I'd prefer to be liked than disliked as it makes life easier. I will agree to differ with people, but unfortunately other seem less able to do this. I have more problems from the things I cannot do for health reasons than principles, for example I don't drink alcohol, I've not been able to since menopause, but I get so much stick for it. Amoung my generation not drinking alcohol is likely to get you shouted at, your drink spiked and all sorts of nastiness, about the best of which is being laughed at for supposedly having "the clap" and being on anti-biotics. I get similar stuff about being vegetarian, people don't seem to want to accept that I can't digest animal protein and eating it causes days or weeks of digestive upsets. I sometimes wonder what came first, my social phobia or being sick and tired of having to explain myself to the ignorant?

TheCatWoman said:

you said I fought harder because of my autistic PDA and a knee jerk cPTSD reaction, thats a pretty big statement when you think about it, there are assumptions there

I was basing this off other conversations we have had in the past where you talked about your cPTSD responses to situations and it seemed probable to me that this would play a part in the drivers for your response.

TheCatWoman said:

Is it only ASC people that have PDA?

No. NTs can also have this condition but it is an autistic trait so has higher occurrance within autists than NTs.

TheCatWoman said:

What do you believe principles to be? What I pick up from reading your posts is that you see them as something holding us back and generally a bad thing

It is not the principles themselves that matter to me these days - I have been a very principled person in the past  and it often caused me problems with a society that was much less rigid in its thinking.

I have learned to see life it all of its shades of grey and realise that holding strong principles is a choice which has its negatives. Such absolutism causes detriment to others but those expressing these principles will often turn a blind eye to it.

There is no real answer to whether principles are right or wrong, only a perspective and one that comes at a price.

It was meant to open a Pandora's Box of arguements, I think we are in danger of pathologising perfectly normal behaviour, such as likes and dislikes.

In your second point you said I fought harder because of my autistic PDA and a knee jerk cPTSD reaction, thats a pretty big statement when you think about it, there are assumptions there, the first being that I have PDA, the second that autistic people have PDA. I think that whole point needs unpacking.

Is it only ASC people that have PDA?

Does being autistic mean one can't have strong thoughts, beliefs and principles that may not be majority opinions without having PDA.

What do you believe principles to be? What I pick up from reading your posts is that you see them as something holding us back and generally a bad thing

I'm surprised you seem reluctant to engage with this subject. I thought it would be right up your street, I thought it would be an interesting conversation to have with someone who's very rational, when I'm more instinctual.

TheCatWoman said:

So do you believe me to have PDA, or is it that you disagree with me and a lable such as PDA is a conveinient excuse for you not to take my arguement seriously?

If you noted, I made no comment on the arguement itself. I only considered the motivations that contributed to your choice.

TheCatWoman said:

At what point do we become able to say 'No, I don't want that', whether its baked beans or the death penalty?

That opens a whole Pandoras box of ethical arguements.

I believe it comes down to making a choice.

Previously on another post you talked about plants having feelings but you chose to carry on eating them as you need to eat something. Here you made a choice in spite of there being some evidence to your choice causing suffering.

I think it comes down to what we are willing to tolerate - where we choose to draw the line.

Be it beans or be it death - you have at some point processed the pros and cons and made a decision and that becomes your default option going forward.

Iain, I'm going to answer your points one by one, please don't think I'm berating you because I disagree, because I'm not, I hope we can have a robust discussion.

1, I don't follow rules unless I see a good reason for them, many are obvious, some seem totally arbitrary, I think a lot of ND people feel like this.

2,Totally disagree with it being a PDA, cPTSD response and my kness were not jerking, I just don't believe that executing people is right, either morally or from a law and order perspective. The process and rituals of execution are hidious and I seriously wonder about the sort of people who willing take part in the process. There's also no evidence that the death penalty deter's crime, in countries where there is the death penalty, crime rates are just as high or higher.

3, I've seen to many miscarriages of justice to believe that execution is the answer, The Birmingham Six, The Guildford Four are tow examples where had capital punishment it would have been used and if it had where would they have got any justice and a postumous pardon is a bit late.

4,I am stubborn, but I didn't decide on my objection to capital punishement on a whim, it's been well thought out over a long period of time.

So do you believe me to have PDA, or is it that you disagree with me and a lable such as PDA is a conveinient excuse for you not to take my arguement seriously? Like I say I'm not trying to berate you, but this question is at the very heart of what this thread is about. Unlike some I didn't acquire principles from others, like a religion or something, but thought about what is right and wrong from my perspective, I know others will disagree with me sometimes and thats OK, but if you're going to disagree, then give me a reason, give me something well thought out and passionate, not a vague semi diagnosis.

At what point do we become able to say 'No, I don't want that', whether its baked beans or the death penalty? 

Is someone who dislikes baked beans exhibiting PDA or a dietry preference?

If someone who dislikes baked beans is showing a dietry preference, then why is being against the death penalty not a criminal justice preference?