Unnecessary anxiety??

NAS86592 said:

I already have strikes against me being an autistic American

I rather think this is the reason some of the local scumbags find you worth tormenting - being American is often thought of as being an arrogant outsider.

I've not come across any anti-semitic ingrained dislike in the UK, at least no more than the usual dislike of anyone from a different origin / religeon / football team supporters club / ginger hair etc

I do see a lot of anti-Israeli sentiment from their long term treatment of Palestine and their theft of land that belongs to the Palestinians using the claim that one of their blokes heard God tel him it was theirs thousands of years ago. A bit convenient that.

Confusing the dislike of the behaviour of the State of Israel with the general persecution of Jews is a common tactic used by those looking to use the historical suffering of Jews as a shield for a truly aweful State government.

Since when did anti-semitic become so much worse than say anti-catholic in terms of it being evil? Why is one religion able to cause so much more damage to peoples reputation for labelling them as anti-semitic than say a protestant being anti-catholic?

At the end of the day I doubt anyone cares if you are Jewish, Hindu or Scientologist - behaving like an outsider in a small town society is much more likely to get you into peoples bad books in the UK.

" Historical suffering" This is the exact excuse protestors in favour of the Palistinians are using to shield their lack of condemnation of the barbaric attack on thier premise of being the injured party through many years of  their terrorism sending out rocket bombardments.

" The promised land" --- NOBODY twisted the arms of all the UN members in 1948 to agree on the creation of the state of Israel (perhaps God did)

" behaving like an outsider" --- more like a consistant treatment as an outsider despite my efforts to socially intergrate.

" Historical suffering" This is the exact excuse protestors in favour of the Palistinians are using to shield their lack of condemnation of the barbaric attack on thier premise of being the injured party through many years of  their terrorism sending out rocket bombardments.

" The promised land" --- NOBODY twisted the arms of all the UN members in 1948 to agree on the creation of the state of Israel (perhaps God did)

" behaving like an outsider" --- more like a consistant treatment as an outsider despite my efforts to socially intergrate.

tens of thousands of Palestinian Bedouins who live in the region.

This is a contradiction of terms. Bedouins (desert dwellers) originated on the Arabian Peninsular spreading themselves throughout the harsh deserts. Bedouins are not endemic to any place in particular which is why they are called Bedouins let alone "tens of thousands of Palestinians Bedouins, as you claim.

Cheers !

NAS86592 said:

I am trying to raise the point that your particular perception, and the perceptions of both past and present experts on this matter may not be a Q.E.D. as it is all a matter of interpretation

On this we agree. Thank you for being rational and discussing openliy on what is a sensitive subject for many.

I don't necessarily disagree with this particular conclusion. I have the time but not the inclination to delve into all the available data to develope my own conclusion.  I am trying to raise the point that your particular perception, and the perceptions of both past and present experts on this matter may not be a Q.E.D. as it is all a matter of interpretation.

On that note I will quietly tip toe away.

NAS86592 said:

this whole topic is in a superposition of many possible inputs at that time and is a rediculous waste of time to speculate on

There I feel we have to disagree.

There are plenty of facts at our disposal on the history of the situation and the behaviours of both sides. While the reasons for the origin are typically dubious and murky (from a political perspective) the actions of all sides speak volumes through the years.

Time and again each side has committed terrible crimes in the claim of self defence and called in aid from friendly powers (Iran for Palestine and USA for Israel in the latest round) to supply them with the tools to slaughter civilians and combatants alike.

All this is is clear view but each side only wants us to see the latest round of how terribly they suffered without noticing the terrible acts they did last month / last year etc. This is their knee jerk reaction and one you are parroting.

I honestly don't know what a solution looks like for them now but it appears a form of genocide of the Palestinian population is an appealing solution for Israel at the moment.

I was highlighting that this is a case of the abused becoming the abuser in plain sight and with the support of the USA.

I don't think our reaction here is knee jerk but looking at the bigger picture as the media is strongly influenced in favour of the latest vitctim at any point in time.

this whole topic is in a superposition of many possible inputs at that time and is a rediculous waste of time to speculate on.

That is why it is a "knee jerk reaction"  You said it yourself --- "We have no possible way to see back--------"

NAS86592 said:

So why as a "knee Jerk" reaction do you make these presumptions?

Can you explain what you see as a knee jerk here please? An honest question as there is a lot we have talked about.

So why as a "knee Jerk" reaction do you make these presumptions?

Iain said:

We have no possible way to see back through the mists of history to see whether aggressive influence was used or not so your arguement that there was no pressure on them is unsupportable,

NAS86592 said:

"NOBODY twisted the arms of all the UN members i

Do you understand how influencers and lobbyists work? It appears not.

They exist to exert pressure, influence and motivation for those voting on a subject to vote a particular way.

We have no possible way to see back through the mists of history to see whether aggressive influence was used or not so your arguement that there was no pressure on them is unsupportable,

Everyone owed a debt to the allies for winning the war and restoring peace to the world so when the top powers proposed this plan then the rest were pretty obligated to go along with it.

From other info I quoted on this thread it was apparent that the early version of the Israelli Lobby were hard at work in the British government for decades and now had the biggest possible opportunity for a sympathy vote in light of the treatment of jews by the Axis powers, so it seems unthinkable that they would not use every tool in the book to try to force this vote through.

Can you provide a good rational otherwise?

Despite influencers and lobbyists etc,etc.I repeat :

"NOBODY twisted the arms of all the UN members in 1948 to agree on the creation of the state of Israel (perhaps God did)"  They all still had their own capacity to also "draw their own conclusions" It's called taking responsibility for the outcome of your actions.

NAS86592 said:

NOBODY twisted the arms of all the UN members in 1948 to agree on the creation of the state of Israel (perhaps God did)

en.wikipedia.org/.../Mandate_for_Palestine
The Balfour Declaration was a public statement issued by the British government in 1917 during the First World War announcing its support for the establishment of a "national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine
...
The declaration was contained in a letter dated 2 November 1917 from the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour to Lord Rothschild, a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland.
...
within two months a memorandum was circulated to the Cabinet by a Zionist Cabinet member, Herbert Samuel, proposing the support of Zionist ambitions in order to enlist the support of Jews in the wider war.

Britain had control over Palestine before and after WW2 which is why it was so central in creating this and encouraging the League of Nations to adopt it.

Looking through the detail around this, it looks as if there were a lot of jewish players influencing politicians throughout the process - an early version of the Jewish Lobby probably.

Am I adding 2 and 2 to get 5? I don't know but do your own research and draw your own conclusions.

I agree that Hamas are savages, but it is quite simply a fact that Israel has occupied the land which the UN awarded to the Palestinians and has driven them to extremism.

It doesn’t excuse murder and atrocities but it is a fact.

Hamas backed by Iran are recognized terrorist states whose openly stated efforts since the 1948 UN decision for Israel's creation, is for the elimination of it. You can go on and on with your "facts"  but when a country is surrounded by neighbours who do not want it to be there, it has no choice but  to arm itself to its teeth as a show not to be messed with.  

NAS86592 said:

Historical suffering

'The dispossession and displacement of Palestinians from their homes is a crucial pillar of Israel’s apartheid system. Since its establishment the Israeli state has enforced massive and cruel land seizures against Palestinians, and continues to implement myriad laws and policies to force Palestinians into small enclaves. Since 1948, Israel has demolished hundreds of thousands of Palestinian homes and other properties across all areas under its jurisdiction and effective control.

As in the Negev/Naqab, Palestinians in East Jerusalem and Area C of the OPT live under full Israeli control. The authorities deny building permits to Palestinians in these areas, forcing them to build illegal structures which are demolished again and again.

In the OPT, the continued expansion of illegal Israeli settlements exacerbates the situation. The construction of these settlements in the OPT has been a government policy since 1967. Settlements today cover 10% of the land in the West Bank, and some 38% of Palestinian land in East Jerusalem was expropriated between 1967 and 2017.

Palestinian neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem are frequently targeted by settler organizations which, with the full backing of the Israeli government, work to displace Palestinian families and hand their homes to settlers. One such neighbourhood, Sheikh Jarrah, has been the site of frequent protests since May 2021 as families battle to keep their homes under the threat of a settler lawsuit.'

NAS86592 said:

The promised land

'Palestinian citizens of Israel, who comprise about 19% of the population, face many forms of institutionalized discrimination. In 2018, discrimination against Palestinians was crystallized in a constitutional law which, for the first time, enshrined Israel exclusively as the “nation state of the Jewish people”. The law also promotes the building of Jewish settlements and downgrades Arabic’s status as an official language.

The report documents how Palestinians are effectively blocked from leasing on 80% of Israel’s state land, as a result of racist land seizures and a web of discriminatory laws on land allocation, planning and zoning.

The situation in the Negev/Naqab region of southern Israel is a prime example of how Israel’s planning and building policies intentionally exclude Palestinians.  Since 1948 Israeli authorities have adopted various policies to “Judaize” the Negev/Naqab, including designating large areas as nature reserves or military firing zones, and setting targets for increasing the Jewish population. This has had devastating consequences for the tens of thousands of Palestinian Bedouins who live in the region.

Thirty-five Bedouin villages, home to about 68,000 people, are currently “unrecognized” by Israel, which means they are cut off from the national electricity and water supply and targeted for repeated demolitions. As the villages have no official status, their residents also face restrictions on political participation and are excluded from the healthcare and education systems. These conditions have coerced many into leaving their homes and villages, in what amounts to forcible transfer.

Decades of deliberately unequal treatment of Palestinian citizens of Israel have left them consistently economically disadvantaged in comparison to Jewish Israelis. This is exacerbated by blatantly discriminatory allocation of state resources: a recent example is the government’s Covid-19 recovery package, of which just 1.7% was given to Palestinian local authorities.'

'Since the mid-1990s Israeli authorities have imposed increasingly stringent movement restrictions on Palestinians in the OPT. A web of military checkpoints, roadblocks, fences and other structures controls the movement of Palestinians within the OPT, and restricts their travel into Israel or abroad.

A 700km fence, which Israel is still extending, has isolated Palestinian communities inside “military zones”, and they must obtain multiple special permits any time they enter or leave their homes. In Gaza, more than 2 million Palestinians live under an Israeli blockade which has created a humanitarian crisis. It is near-impossible for Gazans to travel abroad or into the rest of the OPT, and they are effectively segregated from the rest of the world.'

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/

The “state of Israel” now seems to encompass rather more land than it was awarded by the UN in 1948