Autistic Sex Reputation (NSFW)

For the record I wish this were true. If collectively as autistic people we can spread the roumer that autistic people are incredible in bed we should totally do this.

I would cancel my assessment appointment if this became a commonly held belief. I have enough trouble as it is trying to convince people I'm asexual and not interested.

One man’s pain is another’s pleasure they say.

I experience romantic attraction. Yeah, it sucks when it's not reciprocated, but you know what? You get over it. It's not something that causes traumatic flashbacks that reduce you to a sobbing mess. It doesn't cause physical injury. It doesn't infect you with cancer-causing viruses. Unwanted sex is horrific. Not being able to have exactly the kind of relationship you want with a person can sometimes be a little bit sad. They're not equivalent.

It's not always in what you say, sometimes it's in what you don't say, (social abilities on a spectrum strike again it seems)  especially with such an important subject as body autonomy and consent.

Honestly if you both agree that consent is important and it was said earlier this extra getting to the bottom of it may need not have happened. Hence it was perhaps prudent to offer that information up front at the start. That's all I'm suggesting because as I read the replies tumbling down I did suspect a misunderstanding had occured.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

Obviously, but that's not how the way you phrased your replies implied it to be, that's the issue.

You and HP35 seem to have added that subtext in your own mind and I still don't see where you're getting it from (which I find somewhat frustrating)

HP35 said:

But you're not hungry. If you can type, you can satisfy your libido. You are not experiencing an unmet physical need.

I love how this has somehow become about me personally when I was making a point generally.

HP35 said:

If I have a strong unmet desire to cut your leg off with a chainsaw, is it reasonable for me to expect people to feel sorry for me not being allowed to do that?

Your hyperbole are becoming imposable to take seriously.

HP35 said:

Sure, maybe you have some higher-level need

Just because you don't personally feel or comprehend sexual need or romantic needs expressed in sexual terms it doesn't make it less real or less meaningful. Something doesn't have to be relatable to you to be a real issue for other people.

Peter said:

bees (they/them) said:

But does the person act on it? That's the vital information in your scenario that is missing.

You may safely assume for the purposes of my example they do not or at least not to the point of becoming a sex criminal.

Well don't tell me tell HP who has the concern that their autonomy isn't being respected.

Peter said:

bees (they/them) said:

It's not a difficult concept, you must see the connection yourself because it was you that first drew the comparison.

You must be aware that in the majority of cases sexual arousal does not lead to r*pe.

Obviously, but that's not how the way you phrased your replies implied it to be, that's the issue.

And pls don't take this the wrong way but I'm surprised we had this chat considering I thought you said in essence you didn't what to have this discussion again (tho technically this is it's own discussion).

Glad to have at least cleared up some points though.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

But does the person act on it? That's the vital information in your scenario that is missing.

You may safely assume for the purposes of my example they do not or at least not to the point of becoming a sex criminal.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

It's not a difficult concept, you must see the connection yourself because it was you that first drew the comparison.

You must be aware that in the majority of cases sexual arousal does not lead to r*pe.

But you're not hungry. If you can type, you can satisfy your libido. You are not experiencing an unmet physical need. Sure, maybe you have some higher-level need, and, yes, diddums, I'm sure it's very awkward if you like physically hurting people and they don't like you doing that, but I don't see why you're trying to argue that is somehow worse than being the person who is being hurt.

If I have a strong unmet desire to cut your leg off with a chainsaw, is it reasonable for me to expect people to feel sorry for me not being allowed to do that?

Peter said:

bees (they/them) said:

You might be hungry enugh to commit cannibalism in a deser isle situation but I believe HP's point is it is still murder.

And my point is it's pailful to starve to death whether or not the only alternative was canabalism. It can still be painful to be lonely and horny even if the only alternative was to be some sort of sex criminal. The person who is lonely and horny is not less deserving of sympathy because, hypothetically, his only alternative was to be a sex criminal.

But does the person act on it? That's the vital information in your scenario that is missing.

Peter said:

bees (they/them) said:

The implications of this example are that "r*pe is (somehow) acceptable"

How on earth have you reached that conclusion? Did you think my boat example was suggesting cannibalism was acceptable?

read the bit that followed:

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

Peter said:

Personal arousal and the desire for a sexual relationship is not a consent issue. Its more a bodily imperative most people don't even have a choice over.

The implications of this example are that "r*pe is (somehow) acceptable" because desire isn't something you can control if you don't acknowledge that behaviour is something that can be controlled.

It's not a difficult concept, you must see the connection yourself because it was you that first drew the comparison. You are mentioning it in the same post as you mention the cannibalism. So either the two are linked or you are deliberately trying to move the focus away from the point you made. This is the same conversation, we aren't suddenly also talking separately about the next space mission or something.

then, respectfully, I return my old assertion, that you don't really understand that psychological pain can often be worse than physical pain. Hunger is psychological pain to start with. The 1st 3 days or so don't damage you, but it's painful. Hunger in your belly feels painful. ... But I don't think you get it. It's like trying to explain colour to a blind man.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

You might be hungry enugh to commit cannibalism in a deser isle situation but I believe HP's point is it is still murder.

And my point is it's painful to starve to death whether or not the only alternative was canabalism. It can still be painful to be lonely and horny even if the only alternative was to be some sort of sex criminal. The person who is lonely and horny is not less deserving of sympathy because, hypothetically, his only alternative was to be a sex criminal.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

The implications of this example are that "r*pe is (somehow) acceptable"

How on earth have you reached that conclusion? Did you think my boat example was suggesting cannibalism was acceptable?

Exactly. And given that the speed Peter is typing these replies suggests he probably has at least one functional hand, the analogy isn't even starving to death on a desert island. It's standing in the middle of a well-stocked kitchen bawling "BUT I WANT HUMAN MEAT AND ALL THE MEANIES WON'T LET ME EAT THEM!" and expecting sympathy.

Peter said:

We're not getting into another tortious argument about consent here.

You don't HAVE to but that's where it looked like it was going. My concern is that it would be a shame to have people have to fall out over a misunderstanding and not a genuine point that was made.

Peter said:

No one needs to consent to me or anyone else having a desire for romantic and or sexual relationships. A persons desires is not a thing to which consent applies. If I'm stranded in a boat with another person and I'm starving to death the fact that the only other food in the boat is the other person doesn't invalidate my hunger or the pain of starvation.

The same thing applies to sex. If someone is stuck on a desert island with one other person they don't need that persons permission to be horny. It doesn't invalidate their suffering and pain just because that suffering is caused by some one else's choice not to consent.

I don't see where HP said to the contrary of this tbh. My understanding of HP's point is that despite not having control over how others feel that doesn't mean certain behaviours are moral. You might be hungry enough to commit cannibalism in a desert isle situation but I believe HP's point is it is still murder. Your hunger doesn't give you the right to kill and eat another person, so yes it really does boil down to consent still.

Peter said:

Personal arousal and the desire for a sexual relationship is not a consent issue. Its more a bodily imperative most people don't even have a choice over.

The implications of this example are that "r*pe is (somehow) acceptable" because desire isn't something you can control if you don't acknowledge that behaviour is something that can be controlled.

So yes, it is all coming around to consent again. It just is.

But lets leave it there if you don't want to discuss it. (To my knowledge we have had discussions, but never had an "argument" on the topic, as that implies a fight of some kind which requires a winner and loser.)

Right, but no one needs to feel sorry for you either. Given the choice between feeling sorry for you moping about how horny you are, or feeling sorry for someone who is literally screaming and sobbing from physical pain, I am never going to see you as the victim.

not really. We're not getting into another tortious argument about consent here.

No one needs to consent to me or anyone else having a desire for romantic and or sexual relationships. A persons desires is not a thing to which consent applies. If I'm stranded in a boat with another person and I'm starving to death the fact that the only other food in the boat is the other person doesn't invalidate my hunger or the pain of starvation.

The same thing applies to sex. If someone is stuck on a desert island with one other person they don't need that persons permission to be horny. It doesn't invalidate their suffering and pain just because that suffering is caused by some one else's choice not to consent.

Personal arousal and the desire for a sexual relationship is not a consent issue. Its more a bodily imperative most people don't even have a choice over.

Sorry Peter but that looks like a misconstruement considering the replies have already strayed from the original point. HP's language in that last reply is hyperbolic to prove an emotional point since you are discussing emotions, so it can't be read to be literally about genocides, it's about consent and the right to autonomy. (sometimes it's difficult to read between the lines being autistic, but I just about figured it out myself so) Hope that helps.

If no one is willing to have a sexual relationship with you, then it's not loving or consensual, is it? Hitler saying "oh but I would really like the jews to enjoy and consent to being gassed" wouldn't make his desire to kill them any better, or make his sadness at not being allowed to any more worthy of sympathy.

did you just equate the desire for a loving and consensual sexual relationship with the desire to gas the jews? Do you want to rephrase that point?

This is like saying "oh think of the pain of poor Mr Hitler when he was stopped from putting any more people into gas chambers. He really, really liked doing that and the meanie allies stopped him! He was so upset he killed himself. Why won't you please think of his melancholy longing to torture and kill people, instead of only caring about the people who were tortured and killed. His pain was just as valid as theirs!"

If you don't recognise melancholy as painful I don't think you truly understand it. Why do you think there are so many people who turn to physical pain (often in the form of self harm) to cope with their melancholy? You know there are people who self harm because they can't make these connections and have these sexual experiences right? Do you deny their pain?

I desire romantic relationships too, but no, it's not pain to not be in one. It's melancholy and perhaps a little sadness. Pain is physical agony that makes you scream and cry and beg for it to stop.

I'm sorry that's been your experience. Your choice not to have sex is valid and should be respected ... However I ask you to entertain the possibility that for those who do desire romantic and sexual relationships the inability to attain them is also a form of pain.

I'm sorry that's been your experience. Your choice not to have sex is valid and should be respected ... However I ask you to entertain the possibility that for those who do desire romantic and sexual relationships the inability to attain them is also a form of pain.

IrishInManchesterUK said:

now 52, my rich handsome Prince might very well be 25, despite having more in common with someone over 40

See this is the thing. A lot of autistic people just don't get the same life experiences as other people our age. And if your autistic special interests are widely seen as juvenile (anime, video games etc) there is a decent chance one day you'll end up in a social circle thats younger than you, maybe much younger.

And its at that point people will start treating you as if you are some sort of creep or predator. How dare you hope to find a romantic partner who shares your interests and that you can relate to you monster. You are clearly trying to corrupt these young adults who have had more sex than you and more jobs than you and a lot of them seem to have more money than you ... How dare you.

People just assume older adults hanging out socially with young adults are some kind of threat. It's just another unfair stigma that gets thrown at a lot of autistic people.

When I first came out as gay in my teens I used to dream about my handsome Prince to come along (which never happened) and as I got older (and more civilised), I enjoyed the pleasure of the (classy and platonic) company and friendships of handsome men my own age and (gradually) younger - now 52, my rich handsome Prince might very well be 25, despite having more in common with someone over 40, but I gave up on the gay dating game a long time ago and I became bored of the gay “hookup” culture, as I just don’t want to “jump someone’s bones on the first date” as it’s a very poor way to relate to another human being, revealing one’s own lack of self-respect, even setting morality and religious teachings aside - it’s also one of many reasons why I distanced myself from the gay community over time given what I’d seen since the 1980’s even outside of the commercial gay scene, as frankly, many gay men I know of are like “rabid dogs on heat” and I’d even witnessed this during Covid/lockdowns  

Well, I think it's a very normal thing whatever normal means

Well let me just put my devils advocate hat on for a moment. It sucks that you drifted from your friend because you didn't like their jokes but surely that's a natural thing. Would it have been any different if he made dark death and violence based jokes? Like ok here are 2 parodies of the same song, One based on sexual humour and one based on dark death based humour I think they are both funny so why is humour based on violence just considered off colour and if it's based on sex its threatening? Surely it should be the other way around? If you don't share your friends sense of humour and don't want to hang out with him because of it that's fine but I wouldn't characterise it as his fault.

As for looking at your breasts are you really sure he did so more than any other man? Or was he just less able to be subtle about it? I'm not an artist but I dare say it's quite a common thing for artists to sketch out what they think their crush might look like naked. I suppose the rare thing might be that he told you he'd done it.

I think it's quite common for a persons sexual appreciation of a persons body and the persons personality to be relatively separate. I mean consider the platonic admiration of another's body. If a person is in awe of a sports man and his prowess does it have anything to do with that sportsman's personality most of the time? Almost all sports fans are attracted to sportsmen for what their bodies can do not their personalities and we think of that as quite normal. If I say the way Beckham can kick a ball so hard and far is incredible, and i do sketches of David Beckham kicking footballs, is that objectifying him? It's got nothing to do with his personality after all I don't know him.

You know as autistic people we are often more open and direct about things. To the point of making others uncomfortable. And most of the time we say quite happily that's just an adjustment you have to make dealing with autistic people. Dealing with the openness. So why shouldn't the same argument hold true when it's openness about sex? Just because we live in a society that is more hung up about openness around sex than most things. Doesn't seem like a good enough reason to me.

I used to have a friend who was 26 years old and never experienced sex. Never experienced love or even a hug.

cool im 33 so now you know a 33 year old who has never experienced any of that too lol
id probably flinch from anyone trying to get close now out of it being weird and alien, not normal thing.

Peter, I used to have a friend who was 26 years old and never experienced sex. Never experienced love or even a hug. I can truly feel how painful that is. The pain is definitely real. Not feeling beautiful or wanted or worthy of a hug, it just sucks.. on the other hand we stopped being friends because he didn't know how to express his needs in an appropriate way. He didn't respect my boundaries, kept staring at my breast, kept making sexual jokes, drew me naked in his sketch book and kept objectifying women and never cared about what else they have in their hearts or minds, he cares only about their bodies. I'm trying to say, even tho your pain is real and big, how you express it and behave on it is a completely different thing. I think this is where the discussion is getting tangled and complicated. I really wish you would find the love that you deserve 

Yes I was just mussing that it’s almost the opposite of casual sex. Some one who wants only casual sex wants a sexual interaction but not a romantic one. Where as some ace people want a romantic relationship without sexual interaction.

From each persons perspective the other is kind of pointless in their efforts. Like an NPC put in a game that doesn’t do anything but fill out a crowd.

So close and yet so far, bear in mind being asexual doesn't actually have any bearing of if a person wants a relationship that is serious or casual. For all we know HP35 is looking for another asexual for a long term monogamous relationship, possibly even a soulmate to share teh rest of their life with.

It’s basically inverse casual sex. there are people who want casual sex that involves the orgasm but doesn’t necessarily involve the intimacy and hypothetically speaking it can be the other way around to.

Aye that's it.

No I do think I understand this one. One can desire the romantic closeness of intimate conversation and honesty and commitment to another human being. And also a lot of the platonic physical affection that comes with those sorts of relationships, hugging and just generally being close and affectionate to another person, without actually wanting to do anything sexual; something that would involve or naturally lead to an orgasm.

HP35 said:

I experience romantic attraction.

so your not asexual then?

Non respondi tibi. Respondeo nunc non ego.

HP35 said:

Oh, diddums. A complete lack of attention is not your absolutely ideal scenario. Poor, poor, you.

Look I've attempted to be polite here and engage in a rational discussion even though from my point of view you don't seem to want to approach things rationally at all but instead rely on spurious hyperbole. But if you are going to mock me frankly I no longer care. If anyone else has anything constructive to say I'm happy to hear it. But with you, specifically you HP35, on this topic for now I'm done with you.

That's because you're arrogant and women don't see you as a safe person to confide in. Almost every person interpreted as female has these experiences regularly.

Being autistic makes you a massive outlier, so I guess society is justified in not believing you about any of your experiences. You don't really have sensory or communication differences, right? You're making them up!

Oh, diddums. A complete lack of attention is not your absolutely ideal scenario. Poor, poor, you. That is absolutely as bad as never feeling safe and having people shove things inside your body causing agony and trauma.

HP35 said:

It is absolutely disgusting that you are still pretending that being allowed to live your life in peace is somehow worse than being verbally and physically abused on a regular basis.

Bluntly I don't believe you. Or more specifically I don't believe your personal experience is representative. It sounds like you had some awful experiences and I'm sorry for that but I don't think that makes it at all typical. If nothing else being ace makes you a massive outlier. Also you're misrepresenting what I said.

But even if it was it doesn't invalidate the point that a complete lack of attention is, for some people, undesirable.

Peter said:

'I'm in a rush sorry I don't have time for this etc.'

Using this response results in verbal abuse 90% of the time. About 50% of the time there are specific threats made. Sometimes there is physical aggression (grabbing, chasing, accelerating vehicle towards me, etc).

It's only recently (since I started presenting male) that I've started to have days outside without unsolicited interactions.

In private contexts, I don't think I've ever had a "no" be immediately accepted without the guy trying again at some point. I've been in situations where the choice is either give in, not get any sleep all night because he will wake me up every 10 minutes to check if I've changed my mind, or leave my home and find somewhere else to sleep at midnight.

It is absolutely disgusting that you are still pretending that being allowed to live your life in peace is somehow worse than being verbally and physically abused on a regular basis.

HP35 said:

How do you feel about men who are on average 25cm taller, 40kg heavier, and much stronger than you

Change men to women and I think that's fairly hot. Who doesn't love an amazon.

HP35 said:

sexualising you in all contexts, particularly when you say no and they take that to mean "try again using a different approach"?

Except that's not how most men behave. Even in the 60/70s when builders wolf whistling at every girl walking down the street was considered normal that wasn't how most men behaved.

Women were not sexualised in all contexts. Doctors did not go 'I'm sorry you've got br*ast cancer but before I operate on them can I take you for a drink.' If every guy in your office tried to chat you up at least most would take no for an answer and drop it. And the one that wouldn't the boss would have a word with if you asked him. If occasionally having a woman I'm not attracted to try to chat me up is the price I'd pay for more female attention. Or if it meant having to put my foot down every now and again and say 'look no offence but I'm just not interested in you so seriously drop it ok.' then guess what I could live with that. I think a lot of men feel that way.

I mean you say how awful it is that men keep trying to impress you after you turn them down? How awful that would be, if a girl who I'd turned down turned up the next day with gifts and a poem about how hot I was to try and impress me; that would be just awful (this is sarcasm just to be clear).

HP35 said:

You don't get to turn it off when you're busy, have food poisoning, are mourning a relative, are in the middle of a shutdown or meltdown, or for any other reason.

You don't have to give a reason either for ignoring it. Maybe the most cursory reason like 'I'm in a rush sorry I don't have time for this etc.' Since we've been discussing consent lets remember some one else expressing an interest in you doesn't obligate you to take the time to acknowledge it.

If you have food poisoning and you are literally chucking up into a bucket and some one sees you and feels the need to say you look sexy believe me if they are rational they don't expect you to respond. Although to be fair not many would think food poisoning loos sexy.