Defending autistic adults rights to a social life with the law.

SJW is a term that is used a lot in political discussion.  Dr Peterson(whom you also mention in this thread) is very active in political discussion too.  I quite like Jordan but i disagree with his right of centre classical liberal outlook on the world.

errrr - ok - if you say so.    

You are talking about politics.  Because i would not characterize the same people in the way you characterize them. So that is a point of political contention.

??    I'm not talking politics, I'm talking about the people who pretend they care about others - white-knighting - fake defenders of the hard done by.

Being left of centre is not an NT thing Plastic.  Plenty of ASD folk hold these views too.

Nothing to add. Except that i personally identify with many of your paragraphs and that they've happened to me too.

I'm not meaning anything personal - I'm being a bit of a devil's advocate - but I think that getting the law involved with something that is all about 'feelings' gets very messy.       I absolutely defend your right to be treated fairly - but I also defend the rights of others to enjoy their social life without hassle.

I have been involved with many groups over the years and there is always some kind of power game being played by some members trying to control others - it seems to be a natural way - especially with NTs - they are bent out of shape about control and status.

Do you feel your behaviour is acceptable?   If you think you have unacceptable 'quirks', what do you do to minimise that?        Do you understand the complexities and fragilities of NTs?

Peter said:

there were a sizeable number of people who wanted me to stay.

NTs often say things like this even if it's not true so they can feel better about themselves - a sort of SJW warm feeling that they are good people - even if they aren't.    They lie without thinking - they live in a fantasy world where they are the good guy.

This is why it's so complicated - and difficult/messy to get the law involved - no solid facts to work with from either side.

I do not understand why you seem so determined to paint a picture of me as this universally hated figure but it’s not consistent with the facts. I wouldn’t have been going to these places if there weren’t people there happy to interact with me. If I was universally ostracised and shunned as you suggest why would I have bothered sticking around?

No the reality is there were a number people sorry to see me go. I recall one ban some time ago now where two people left the organisation in question in protest at my expulsion. One even got so angry she gave an organiser a dressing down in front of everyone. Even a year later I had people coming up to me and saying I’d been missed.

Had I had the resources to start a new group doing the same activity that time I think a small chunk of the group would have jumped ship when I was pushed out.

Even if the majority wanted me gone, which I don’t believe it did, there were a sizeable number of people who wanted me to stay.

And I should point out that preventing the interests and preferences of the many being used to justify the unfair treatment of the few or the one is one of the most important functions of the law. That’s not a power trip, that’s justice.

With all due respect, NTs are very good at 'reading' other NTs - they cannot read us so there's no way they can judge a proportionate response to someone behaving oddly or apparently threateningly - their only safe outcome is to remove the problem.    

You assume it's just one person complaining but I'd say it's one person who had enough - but many others grudgingly putting up with the disturbance to their evening.     That's not a good environment to impose on everyone.

Surely the whole point of socialising is finding where you fit.  Finding people on your wavelength that *want* to be with you?.     

I still don't get why you would want to force yourself into an uncomfortable situation.       I does seem to be a power game using the legal system to force others to comply with your will.      

Are you really honest with yourself about your motivations?

Respectfully I think you’re presenting a false binary choice between banning people and doing nothing. Recall the 3rd rule in determining whether something is proportionate is ‘are the means chosen no more than is necessary to accomplish the objective?’ Equality law requires less extreme means be used if possible and one possible alternative when you have someone who has been upset or offended by something an autistic person has said is just to tell the autistic person what it is that upset them and why.

It’s entirely possible that a small number of people are over sensitive in general or to a particular topic and an autistic person who knows this can just try to avoid talking to them, or at least about a specific topic. Or simply explaining to whoever was offended that a person is autistic and not picking up on their non verbal cues may be enough. It might help matters if people can be more explicit if they are uncomfortable with the direction a topic of conversation is going in.

There are a whole range of ways to defuse and de escalate situations where someone has become upset with something an autistic person has said short of jumping to a ban as a first option.

This is as I said how things used to work in the olden days. If someone was upset with something you said they would generally verbalise it and you could resolve matters respectfully with open discourse. It’s a modern innovation, a culture shift, to see someone saying something that upset you as first and foremost a matter for someone else to adjudicate on rather than an interpersonal conflict to be resolved as civil adults.

So no in fact I’m in favor of autistic people being told about what others find objectionable about them. But I’m opposed to them being excluded without any effort being made to resolve issues any other way.

Nor do I think that it necessarily follows that because someone has been banned no one wants them there. In my experience it only takes a few vocal individuals making a lot of noise to get someone kicked out. I’ve always accepted I’m something of a marmite individual. I polarise opinion. People love me or hate me. I don’t know but I’m guessing I can’t be the only autistic person who has that experience? But even if 50% of people don’t want me somewhere that means 50% do. Right now a place where 50% of people wanted me around and ‘got me’ would feel like heaven.

I’m sure there are many autistic people who regularly go to places where a significant number of people don’t like them because a significant number of people in those places also do like them and because if you live a lonely and isolated life that feels like hitting the jackpot.

But fundamentally I disagree with your premise that it is an autistic person's job to fit in with the majority if they want to be accepted. I think if a society that preaches diversity can’t tolerate people so different from them it causes discomfort then it's not really diverse at all. My strategy has always been to concentrate on the minority within the majority that accept the real me and concentrate my energy there.

I still don't get it - you want to legally *force* everyone around you to put up with your behaviour - no matter how obnoxious you might choose to be at any venue - and they will be unable to tell you what any problem could be because whatever they might say, they would risk you taking them to court again?   

I don't know why you would insist on being somewhere where you aren't wanted?     Is this some kind of power-play?      Your rights exceed anyone else's?      What happens if everyone just walks away from you and you're left sitting alone in the venue?      Who would you take to court?      Would that be the manager's fault for not locking the doors?   

Like it or not, we are a tiny minority so really, if we want to be accepted, the onus is on us to fit with the majority in this instance - you can't *force* people to like you or want to be near you.      Surely being amenable and respecting other people's views is the whole point of socialising?

What am I hoping to achieve is a valid question. Honestly I want to go back. I was seeking an injunction to that effect. The equality act was specifically designed to give courts, even a small claims court, the power to make injunctions forcing organisations to change discriminatory practices.

More generally I may establish in law an important principal and test a new area of autism law in court. If a case goes to appeal the result of the appeal case is binding on all lower courts.

Depending on how things go it may never get to court. Settlement out of court is a possibility. But if that happens I’m not likely to drop this. I’ll just change tack. I’ll push parliament for legislation to explicitly clarify the law so in the future it will be spelled out clearly that autistic people can not simply be excluded from social settings for being ‘weirdos.’

I see a threat on the horizon for autistic people. For years I had no trouble, at least none on the scale I’ve recently had, in these little geeky enclaves my social life existed in. But more recently a transition has occurred. People are more sensitive and more likely to interpret any thing that offends or upsets them as some sort of crime rather than mere rudeness.

Before if people had an issue with something you said they tended to take it up with you directly so you had a chance to mend fences. now they are more likely to go directly to an organiser and demand ‘something be done.’

It causes this absurd situation where autistic people can be told they’ve caused some sort of incident of which they themselves are totally unaware. Incidents no one will actually reveal to them incase doing so reveals the identity of whom even has complained about them.

As the world becomes more sensitive, dare I say politically correct, there is a real risk more and more autistic people will find themselves being kicked out of organised social groups and activities on the basis of complaints they aren’t allowed see but where the details may very well boil down to ‘this person is a weirdo.’

I personally believe someone has to take a stand and nip this trend in the bud. Am I really the only one concerned about this?

Hi Peter

May I just point out a couple of things that leap out to me on reading your post.

You seem to be very angry at the world for not providing you with a tailor-made social life to the point you're trying to drag someone through the courts - to what end?       What are you trying to achieve?    You seem to be taking the process as a challenge to 'beat someone' rather than thinking about the situation rationally.     More things are achieved with honey than vinegar.

You say your interests are very obscure - so you must realise that the number of people into the same things is going to be a handful at best - and even then, are they bothered enough about the subject to spend time with you talking about it?

Just an observation, but you come across as very intense and intimidating so I can see how you might end up in the situation you are in.    

All I can suggest is to realise that, as someone with ASD, we see the world VERY, VERY differently to the NTs and our ability to be an expert in anything we are interested in is very off-putting to the NT ego - they feel inferior so they often become adversarial in response.      You appear to not take other's lack of ability to operate at the same level as you as a factor in how they react to you.       Your knowledge probably frightens them on many different levels - and their egos can't handle that.

I would suggest a couple of strategies that might help you - like starting or joining a special interest forum - the internet is a big place so you're more likely to find like-minded people there.         Either that or maybe find some slightly more main-stream interests that will give you a larger pool of potential social interactions.

If you want to interact with NTs you need to understand them and cut them some slack - it's like you shouting in English in, say, a German pub and expecting them to bend to your language - you know you'll end up being thrown out.  

It's worth watching some Jordan Peterson on Youtube - he's good at explaining the fragility on delusions of NTs so I'm sure you'll be able to create a model in your own mind of a better way to interact with them.

good for you, hoping you win. Just love your fighting spirit.

that's more than most 

Also it’s not like I didn’t look into setting up my own club but the costs would have run to several thousand pounds a year. Given renting even a small room for a night that comes equipped with a projector  and screen is generally 100£ plus and you’d be doing this hopefully at least 22 times a year. Even if I could get 10 people ... which I might struggle to do to start with, I doubt I could persuade them to part with 10£ a night.

at uni while doing my phd I tried to start a weird science club. A Regular series of lectures members would take turns to give on real science that sounds more like science fiction. The student union was quite enthusiastic about the project. Gave me a free advert in the student paper. No one expressed any interest. In retrospect  Might have been my reference to wearing bras on your head being optional (a reference to the cult scifi film weird science)

I have looked into costs etc. Please be reassured I’m currently representing myself as a litigant in person. Doing all my own legal research / paper work etc.

I‘m not going to go into the specific of the case but most disability discrimination cases are generally handled in small claims court where you don’t generally have to pay the other sides costs if you loose.

also there is a small possibility that the equality and human rights commission getting involved if you get your case referred to them which if they do means they might fund a case if it gets to the fast or multi track. However EHRC is generally only interested in novel cases typically at appeal level or above. 
anyway.

As I said I have a fairly narrow window of interests. A few friends have tried taking me to other places. War gaming clubs, card game clubs, no offence to those who like it but I find  it terribly dull and never really connected with the people there. Too quiet, only really interested in talking about these elaborate fantasy worlds and the huge system of stats and rules involved. which is fine for them but the games and stories leave me kinda cold.

quizes are only really fun for me if they are with people I already know and the quiz has a geeky bent.

please dont bankrupt yourself  ---- i am on your side,,,  it's just from my experience the law generally is an ass.  I could blow a load of money on this and not get anywhere.

I think you are new here so welcome --  by all means vent  but please dont blow your hard earned dough on solictors.  

Why not start your own meetup group put the money into that instead. Seek out people just like you. Start a quiz group and show them who really are the best.

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