Defending autistic adults rights to a social life with the law.

Hi Peter

May I just point out a couple of things that leap out to me on reading your post.

You seem to be very angry at the world for not providing you with a tailor-made social life to the point you're trying to drag someone through the courts - to what end?       What are you trying to achieve?    You seem to be taking the process as a challenge to 'beat someone' rather than thinking about the situation rationally.     More things are achieved with honey than vinegar.

You say your interests are very obscure - so you must realise that the number of people into the same things is going to be a handful at best - and even then, are they bothered enough about the subject to spend time with you talking about it?

Just an observation, but you come across as very intense and intimidating so I can see how you might end up in the situation you are in.    

All I can suggest is to realise that, as someone with ASD, we see the world VERY, VERY differently to the NTs and our ability to be an expert in anything we are interested in is very off-putting to the NT ego - they feel inferior so they often become adversarial in response.      You appear to not take other's lack of ability to operate at the same level as you as a factor in how they react to you.       Your knowledge probably frightens them on many different levels - and their egos can't handle that.

I would suggest a couple of strategies that might help you - like starting or joining a special interest forum - the internet is a big place so you're more likely to find like-minded people there.         Either that or maybe find some slightly more main-stream interests that will give you a larger pool of potential social interactions.

If you want to interact with NTs you need to understand them and cut them some slack - it's like you shouting in English in, say, a German pub and expecting them to bend to your language - you know you'll end up being thrown out.  

It's worth watching some Jordan Peterson on Youtube - he's good at explaining the fragility on delusions of NTs so I'm sure you'll be able to create a model in your own mind of a better way to interact with them.

What am I hoping to achieve is a valid question. Honestly I want to go back. I was seeking an injunction to that effect. The equality act was specifically designed to give courts, even a small claims court, the power to make injunctions forcing organisations to change discriminatory practices.

More generally I may establish in law an important principal and test a new area of autism law in court. If a case goes to appeal the result of the appeal case is binding on all lower courts.

Depending on how things go it may never get to court. Settlement out of court is a possibility. But if that happens I’m not likely to drop this. I’ll just change tack. I’ll push parliament for legislation to explicitly clarify the law so in the future it will be spelled out clearly that autistic people can not simply be excluded from social settings for being ‘weirdos.’

I see a threat on the horizon for autistic people. For years I had no trouble, at least none on the scale I’ve recently had, in these little geeky enclaves my social life existed in. But more recently a transition has occurred. People are more sensitive and more likely to interpret any thing that offends or upsets them as some sort of crime rather than mere rudeness.

Before if people had an issue with something you said they tended to take it up with you directly so you had a chance to mend fences. now they are more likely to go directly to an organiser and demand ‘something be done.’

It causes this absurd situation where autistic people can be told they’ve caused some sort of incident of which they themselves are totally unaware. Incidents no one will actually reveal to them incase doing so reveals the identity of whom even has complained about them.

As the world becomes more sensitive, dare I say politically correct, there is a real risk more and more autistic people will find themselves being kicked out of organised social groups and activities on the basis of complaints they aren’t allowed see but where the details may very well boil down to ‘this person is a weirdo.’

I personally believe someone has to take a stand and nip this trend in the bud. Am I really the only one concerned about this?

What am I hoping to achieve is a valid question. Honestly I want to go back. I was seeking an injunction to that effect. The equality act was specifically designed to give courts, even a small claims court, the power to make injunctions forcing organisations to change discriminatory practices.

More generally I may establish in law an important principal and test a new area of autism law in court. If a case goes to appeal the result of the appeal case is binding on all lower courts.

Depending on how things go it may never get to court. Settlement out of court is a possibility. But if that happens I’m not likely to drop this. I’ll just change tack. I’ll push parliament for legislation to explicitly clarify the law so in the future it will be spelled out clearly that autistic people can not simply be excluded from social settings for being ‘weirdos.’

I see a threat on the horizon for autistic people. For years I had no trouble, at least none on the scale I’ve recently had, in these little geeky enclaves my social life existed in. But more recently a transition has occurred. People are more sensitive and more likely to interpret any thing that offends or upsets them as some sort of crime rather than mere rudeness.

Before if people had an issue with something you said they tended to take it up with you directly so you had a chance to mend fences. now they are more likely to go directly to an organiser and demand ‘something be done.’

It causes this absurd situation where autistic people can be told they’ve caused some sort of incident of which they themselves are totally unaware. Incidents no one will actually reveal to them incase doing so reveals the identity of whom even has complained about them.

As the world becomes more sensitive, dare I say politically correct, there is a real risk more and more autistic people will find themselves being kicked out of organised social groups and activities on the basis of complaints they aren’t allowed see but where the details may very well boil down to ‘this person is a weirdo.’

I personally believe someone has to take a stand and nip this trend in the bud. Am I really the only one concerned about this?

If they don't have evidence besides there own word against yours. Then you should be fine. I'd exsplain to the judge it's sabatotage due to your autism and basically a form of herrasment and bullying. Assume your researching. Hate crime acts against Autistic people as that should help further your case.

In my case there is a big organisation that’s thrown itself in on the side of my accusers. If they back down now they’ll loose face and be forced to change things they really don’t want to change. And right now the legal side is very much going their way. They’d have to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory to loose now.

I should also add even though I hadn't been assessed back then I still knew I was autistic back then and so did a lot of people as I was in the final waiting stages of my assessment this was about 5 months ago mind and partly what inspired my tattoo as well due to the fight I had to battle with this issue and how it impacted on my mentality.why I can't sympathise with NTs either as I realise now just how crule they can be to autistic people.

Oh it did hence why I had to get the police involved in the end didn't come to the point where we had to go to caught but yeah I had to go to the police to exsplain my case and the person who had done this to me was aprently notorious for doing it to people in the past too so sure enough they got found out in the end but they should of been arested due to the stress and greif it caused. You'll be alright like me your chatrophising the worst case out come. Even after the event my therapist exsplained to me that it was never a serious thing to get worked up over in the 1st place just a bunch of people being spiteful no reason because they had a problem with my autism. But this is why it's a hate crime to spread rumours about autistic people due to how we take it and how something perceived as small and petty to NT can throw an autistic person over the edge as we don't handle bullying well due to our condition. I'm sure you'll be ok mind turned out ok in the end but I understand the nightmare and he'll you must be going through.

Now suppose those rumours took the form of a complaint about you, and the people in charge of investigating the complaints were this other persons mates. Suppose you never even got to hear about it until the day they told you they were kicking you out. Suppose your friends never even got the chance to take your side because everything was done in secret. Suppose a small clique took control of the place you felt was home and forced you out because it suited them and some one was stupid enough to put them in charge and let them do what they want … 

but as I said. Right now I don’t feel like I’m winning at all.

I always find when it comes to autism although the majority tend to accept us understand there are always the odd few in groups that dislike us purely on the bases of autism similar situation happened to me down my local pub but resolved that issue now and everyone is fine with but some malicious NT basically tried to sabatage me and spread rumours about me and bullied me down there eventually everyone saw how horrible this person was and backed me in the end but during the time it really had a big impact on my mental health and anxiety. Had I of been assed when at the time it happened I'd if definitely taken it to caught as a hate crime so good luck with the case and hope it you get the result your after 

You don’t get it. This wasn’t like any clique. Oh don’t get me wrong there were a few cliques there but as a whole it was a place people could really be them selves, could dream together about the world they way it should be instead of how it was. It wasn’t perfect but it was mine, and it felt like home.

we weren’t goths or metal heads … there was diversity of styles and interests. But we were nerds, otaku, weebs if you will. And we weren’t overly fussed about putting people in pidgin holes.

we had goth weebs. Burlesque weebs, math weebs, rock weebs, literature weebs, pirate weebs that made dresses for fun. It was a place where you could be yourself with out needing to fit neatly inside a stereotype.

trust me such places truly do exist. For a while I was there.

Oh your socilising with goths. I laugh cause I can relate what with being a metal head. Metal heads and goths are two of the most overly sensitive types of people going. Although I'm a metal head I don't socilise with other metal heads as I find the msjoyto be nutters and wre all very opinionated. I wouldn't take it personally usually us wiredos in the subgenra culture never tend to get on with one another even though we listen to similar types of music or dress the same. Hence the only time you see metal heads or goths were usually by ourselves. That's just the way it goes I've come to realise it's mostly punks tahts socilise to get her but that's cause they all have same left wing mind sets and although I like punk I don't care for politics behind it

No. It was real. There was a place where I was allowed to be me and people, at least some people, accepted me as such.

it’s no myth it existed. My anime soc. Where I could talk about the quirky and weird things that fascinated me and actually get intelligent interested replies most of the time.

It was there I found someone who invited me to my first goth night. There where I learnt at least sometimes I could make girls laugh. It was there we would sit in the pub and discuss quantum computing, micro nations and world domination.

if it wasn’t for that place I’d never have found half of the confidence to do what I have and try what I’ve tried. It made me believe for a moment I could still have a youth.

lol for a moment I even held out hope one of my female friends might eventually be a girlfriend.

rowdy house parties, nightclubs, anime conventions, zombi apocalypse games, nights spent making fun of riots, lampooning politicians and dreaming up electric lingerie of questionable safety.

there was a place where people like me were welcome once, where we didn’t have to be alone. And it only took a few bad apples to take it away.

Your just refering to modern day society in general man everyone's that way these days wouldn't take it personally people are just diks in genral these days. I don't bother going out because people are mean about my autism I don't go out anymore cause people are to how to understand these days so what's the point. NT geeks tend be overly sensitive anyway at the best of times. Like for me I paint Warhammer but I don't play it cause I find the geeks that do play it intolerable to socilise with. And realisticly it's probably a lost case as you can't force somone to like another person or socilise with you. The reason we don't bother with taking leagel action is cause we know it's a lost cause anyway.

Even if we accept as you seem to assert that neurotypicals might find the innocently intentioned behaviour of autistic people threatening it doesn’t follow that perception is rational.

There are women who find sharing toilets with trans women threatening. People who find sharing dark alleys with black people threatening. It doesn’t follow their perception is rational or that it should be accommodated.

Part of life is sharing spaces with people you’d rather not be around. For example you can’t stop your mean boss or bitter ex from going to the same bar or event you do. It doesn’t mean you have to interact with them.

You seem to be suggesting I’m advocating forcing people to interact with autistic people? Just because someone attends an event it doesn’t follow any one has to interact with them. If they don’t want to talk they can just say so.

Many will want to interact but if some don’t no one is forcing them to do so.

I totally disagree with you about every point you made in the post above.     I have no axe to grind with anyone but I try to stand in a position of logic and reason (in my opinion) so if people make contentious posts, I will ask the basis for their thoughts.   

I have nothing against you at all - I seem to remember you got in over your head in a heated discussion and then backed out - so what?   I don't hold any grudges or ill feelings toward you - I think I even mentioned that typing is a clumsy way of having a discussion and things would be smoother verbally as things written get other people's misinterpretation of feelings put on them where they might not exist.

I ABSOLUTELY have never mentioned anything about where you live - which until now I was unaware of - so what's your point?    

From other threads you have posted on I can imagine that you are lonely and wanting a social life too - is that why you are attracted to this thread?   

Do you feel legally forcing NTs out for a social evening to accept potentially threatening or disturbing behaviour from ND people to be a sensible way to go?

Perhaps it's unconcious.  But i noticed you do seem to object to anyone who might have a cause they're promoting. That is one of the political positions of Dr Peterson. That you should "clean your room" on not interfere in world events. I also object to the way Ash Ington was bullied off the forums for having a different view of things from you and your friends. Maybe he was a vulnerable person who did not deserve such treatment?  I do recall you were less complimentary towards my views when i joined.   Insulting me when i was vulnerable and referencing the fact that i still lived at home. All because i  had the temerity to have a different view of the world to you.  Anyway enjoy the rest of your life.  I'm sure i can have the social grace to genuinely care for someone i disagree with.    It's a pity that you can't.

Like a lot of things, terms get hijacked or apply more to one group or other.     I'm not interested in anyone's political views but Jordan explains how people work very well - no punches pulled, pure fact & reality.      He's very astute about the individual fantasy worlds that most people inhabit.

SJW is a term that is used a lot in political discussion.  Dr Peterson(whom you also mention in this thread) is very active in political discussion too.  I quite like Jordan but i disagree with his right of centre classical liberal outlook on the world.

errrr - ok - if you say so.    

You are talking about politics.  Because i would not characterize the same people in the way you characterize them. So that is a point of political contention.

??    I'm not talking politics, I'm talking about the people who pretend they care about others - white-knighting - fake defenders of the hard done by.

Being left of centre is not an NT thing Plastic.  Plenty of ASD folk hold these views too.

I'm not meaning anything personal - I'm being a bit of a devil's advocate - but I think that getting the law involved with something that is all about 'feelings' gets very messy.       I absolutely defend your right to be treated fairly - but I also defend the rights of others to enjoy their social life without hassle.

I have been involved with many groups over the years and there is always some kind of power game being played by some members trying to control others - it seems to be a natural way - especially with NTs - they are bent out of shape about control and status.

Do you feel your behaviour is acceptable?   If you think you have unacceptable 'quirks', what do you do to minimise that?        Do you understand the complexities and fragilities of NTs?

Peter said:

there were a sizeable number of people who wanted me to stay.

NTs often say things like this even if it's not true so they can feel better about themselves - a sort of SJW warm feeling that they are good people - even if they aren't.    They lie without thinking - they live in a fantasy world where they are the good guy.

This is why it's so complicated - and difficult/messy to get the law involved - no solid facts to work with from either side.