Published on 12, July, 2020
I’m sure you guys can relate to being fed up with life to the Nth degree. To some degree I want to vent but also I want to make a point hoping at least some people here will agree with me. But I need to start with some background about myself first.
I was diagnosed as an adult. Autism was something that only got picked up during my degree and didn’t get formally diagnosed till much later. Prior to that I’d been home schooled, getting my A levels in a community college. I won’t say autism hasn’t effected my career but it didn’t stop me achieving well academically and getting a job in my chosen career as a scientist.
The one area where autism effects me most in my life is my social life, at this stage it's almost laughable to call it a social life really. I’m actually pretty extroverted. I love spending time with interesting people talking about interesting things. Unfortunately that window of people on my wavelength is pretty narrow and getting less accessible as time goes on. My interests are generally juvenile and nerdy. Obscure video games and anime, weird science and … well things out of the ordinary.
I’m very widely read and my enthusiasm for what I find interesting can come off as arrogant (because I appear to be an authority on everything) or creepy (because I’m generally unable to tell when interest transitions into discomfort for the people I’m talking with unless they express it verbally). I don’t see the line between interesting and disturbing because, well for me it isn’t there to the same extent.
I’ve been banned twice from activity groups and once by a geek themed bar ostensibly for being a ‘weirdo’ and making people feel ‘uncomfortable.’ This is why I’m now taking legal action. I’m not going to elaborate on against who or the specifics of the situation. But I do want to talk about the protection the law affords autistic people and why no one ever seems to have fought for it before.
Because believe me I’ve been reading a lot of case law and I can’t find a case like mine anywhere. The equality act says discrimination arising from disability is illegal. You can not apply the same rule to everyone and say you are not discriminating if the rule penalises people for things that are caused by their disabilities. Not unless you can justify it as a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim.
So for example in a school you can’t expel an autistic student for being disruptive unless you can demonstrate you’ve really looked at every alternative.
In fact it's actually illegal to have rules that unfairly penalised the disabled. An example in employment would be the Bowerman v B&Q case where the tribunal ruled that defining ‘unintentional sexual harassment’ as ‘grose misconduct’ without a provision to take autism in to account was discrimination.
If you have an autistic person who is unintentionally causing upset, as far as I can understand the law, you can’t just ban them on the grounds that’s what you’d do to anyone else. You have to have a process to assess to what degree autism contributed to the issue and if the ban meets the legal tests for being a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim for which the supreme court has laid down a 4 part test.
This principle has been tested in education and in employment but the equality act says it also applies to goods and services. If you ban an autistic person from a venue, event or other activity offered as a service to the public the same principal should apply.
As an autistic person I rely on fairly neich special interest groups to help me make friends and connect with people on my wavelength. They are basically my social lifeline. I suspect many autistic adults who like me are more or less independent but fairly isolated are similarly reliant on activity groups like that.
So why is it that I’m the first, as far as I can tell, to take a stand on this issue?
Disclaimer: I’m not a lawyer, none of this is legal advice
please disregard this post. It is being made purely to prevent this thread being deleated in the upcoming forum upgrade.
I got an email yesterday confirming that one of the last milestones in the settlement agreement had played out. Very much in the favour of the other side. Extremely disappointed. These last few years over the pandemic have been a bit like a slow death for me. Watching friends I'd loved drift away and stop returning my calls. Watching as so many the the things and places I used to enjoy or take comfort in get closed down post pandemic, My favourite restaurant where I used to go with friends to have tea before we went to the cinema together, The club nights I used to hang out at. The local LARP meet up I used to randomly turn up to because one of the organisers was an old friend. Ironically the group I'm banned from is one of the few that's still going strong.
I'd always hoped against hope I'd go back some day. It kept me sane when I was literally suicidal in my early 20s. Now that seems almost imposable. I want revenge, not against any person, against the organisation. Against the idea that they were right. I hate the idea that they will now probably move on as if nothing had happened and write me off as some sort of crackpot. I'm working on taking everything I've learned and turning it into a resource. Something like the D.A.R.T. guide doug paulley wrote for people with physical disabilities experiencing discrimination but specifically for autistic people.
I don't think cases like mine are all that rare. I'm hoping by offering the next generation some support maybe we can flood the system with cases until we finally get a precedent set in court. Maybe that will make this longing and loss mean something.
It's so difficult when fighting for rights especially when finances are not there and some people have barriers to fighting the system even if they wanted to.
I wish you luck in your quest as it sounds like a very traumatising experience from what your posts say especially when you are putting your heart and soul into researching to fight your cause. :-)
In fairness part of the disability law is that you have to take the discriminatior to court yourself.
I had to build my whole case myself without legal help. Had to file all the paperwork for the case myself and pay all the fees for filing that paperwork.
if my case had been assigned to the the fast or multi track and I’d lost, or maybe even if I’d won but hadn’t got the injunction I’d asked for, I could have been facing paying the costs of the other sides lawyers.
It’s not that I didn’t think I could win. I felt the law was on my side. But I couldn’t be sure.
so when it looked like an out of court settlement could fairly resolve the issue I took that path. But as I said the resolution hasn’t felt very fair to me so far.
what we really need is a legal aid charity specifically for autistic people brining section 114 equality act cases. A safety net where they can get a proper lawyer to take there case to court with out worrying about bankrupting themselves.
Hi Peter,
I do commend you for wanting to change the law in terms of having rights specific to Autistics. I do feel though from personal experience, laws are just hot air unless individuals are willing or mentally able to tackle them each time they encounter discrimination. It is often too tiring to do and not worth it in the outcome that so often happens.
I got in touch with a local MP to raise issues I had encountered with UC. It was taken to parliament along with other service users irks. The politician did explain to me that they would raise the points but that there was so much red tape that the actual system would probably not change.
I have lost/left a lot of jobs because of feeling ostracised because colleagues do not put the same effort into their work being one reason, there are many other reasons. It is important that peoples rights are taken into account and protected in society but I feel that isn't the case sadly. The way society is set up illustrates this in my opinion. There are many companies who have disability badges where I have been employed yet the actual environment is not set up to support people with challenges. I was with a company who were only able to make reasonable adjustments for a short time which meant I would not receive the ongoing support I needed. I had no option but to leave because it meant I'd be back at the beginning when the job changed back to causing me immense anxiety. I could go on with my whole like of examples of discrimination that I have fought or not. Both have the same outcome. Losing my job or having to leave it because I am at the point of severe illness.
I do commend your fighting attitude and your quest to find a group who is your tribe. I do think however that it is futile because humans by nature are adept at pushing out or not accepting differences. I am 45 and have been through the cycle again and again. There is already a disability law as you are well versed in but there is still discrimination.
I do hope that your quest changes something in society whatever form that takes. I just hope that the fight doesn't cause you debilitating mental health issues as it has with me.
Sending all the luck in the world.
If they don't have evidence besides there own word against yours. Then you should be fine. I'd exsplain to the judge it's sabatotage due to your autism and basically a form of herrasment and bullying. Assume your researching. Hate crime acts against Autistic people as that should help further your case.
In my case there is a big organisation that’s thrown itself in on the side of my accusers. If they back down now they’ll loose face and be forced to change things they really don’t want to change. And right now the legal side is very much going their way. They’d have to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory to loose now.
I should also add even though I hadn't been assessed back then I still knew I was autistic back then and so did a lot of people as I was in the final waiting stages of my assessment this was about 5 months ago mind and partly what inspired my tattoo as well due to the fight I had to battle with this issue and how it impacted on my mentality.why I can't sympathise with NTs either as I realise now just how crule they can be to autistic people.
Oh it did hence why I had to get the police involved in the end didn't come to the point where we had to go to caught but yeah I had to go to the police to exsplain my case and the person who had done this to me was aprently notorious for doing it to people in the past too so sure enough they got found out in the end but they should of been arested due to the stress and greif it caused. You'll be alright like me your chatrophising the worst case out come. Even after the event my therapist exsplained to me that it was never a serious thing to get worked up over in the 1st place just a bunch of people being spiteful no reason because they had a problem with my autism. But this is why it's a hate crime to spread rumours about autistic people due to how we take it and how something perceived as small and petty to NT can throw an autistic person over the edge as we don't handle bullying well due to our condition. I'm sure you'll be ok mind turned out ok in the end but I understand the nightmare and he'll you must be going through.
Now suppose those rumours took the form of a complaint about you, and the people in charge of investigating the complaints were this other persons mates. Suppose you never even got to hear about it until the day they told you they were kicking you out. Suppose your friends never even got the chance to take your side because everything was done in secret. Suppose a small clique took control of the place you felt was home and forced you out because it suited them and some one was stupid enough to put them in charge and let them do what they want …
but as I said. Right now I don’t feel like I’m winning at all.
I always find when it comes to autism although the majority tend to accept us understand there are always the odd few in groups that dislike us purely on the bases of autism similar situation happened to me down my local pub but resolved that issue now and everyone is fine with but some malicious NT basically tried to sabatage me and spread rumours about me and bullied me down there eventually everyone saw how horrible this person was and backed me in the end but during the time it really had a big impact on my mental health and anxiety. Had I of been assed when at the time it happened I'd if definitely taken it to caught as a hate crime so good luck with the case and hope it you get the result your after
You don’t get it. This wasn’t like any clique. Oh don’t get me wrong there were a few cliques there but as a whole it was a place people could really be them selves, could dream together about the world they way it should be instead of how it was. It wasn’t perfect but it was mine, and it felt like home.
we weren’t goths or metal heads … there was diversity of styles and interests. But we were nerds, otaku, weebs if you will. And we weren’t overly fussed about putting people in pidgin holes.
we had goth weebs. Burlesque weebs, math weebs, rock weebs, literature weebs, pirate weebs that made dresses for fun. It was a place where you could be yourself with out needing to fit neatly inside a stereotype.
trust me such places truly do exist. For a while I was there.
Oh your socilising with goths. I laugh cause I can relate what with being a metal head. Metal heads and goths are two of the most overly sensitive types of people going. Although I'm a metal head I don't socilise with other metal heads as I find the msjoyto be nutters and wre all very opinionated. I wouldn't take it personally usually us wiredos in the subgenra culture never tend to get on with one another even though we listen to similar types of music or dress the same. Hence the only time you see metal heads or goths were usually by ourselves. That's just the way it goes I've come to realise it's mostly punks tahts socilise to get her but that's cause they all have same left wing mind sets and although I like punk I don't care for politics behind it
No. It was real. There was a place where I was allowed to be me and people, at least some people, accepted me as such.
it’s no myth it existed. My anime soc. Where I could talk about the quirky and weird things that fascinated me and actually get intelligent interested replies most of the time.
It was there I found someone who invited me to my first goth night. There where I learnt at least sometimes I could make girls laugh. It was there we would sit in the pub and discuss quantum computing, micro nations and world domination.
if it wasn’t for that place I’d never have found half of the confidence to do what I have and try what I’ve tried. It made me believe for a moment I could still have a youth.
lol for a moment I even held out hope one of my female friends might eventually be a girlfriend.
rowdy house parties, nightclubs, anime conventions, zombi apocalypse games, nights spent making fun of riots, lampooning politicians and dreaming up electric lingerie of questionable safety.
there was a place where people like me were welcome once, where we didn’t have to be alone. And it only took a few bad apples to take it away.
Your just refering to modern day society in general man everyone's that way these days wouldn't take it personally people are just diks in genral these days. I don't bother going out because people are mean about my autism I don't go out anymore cause people are to how to understand these days so what's the point. NT geeks tend be overly sensitive anyway at the best of times. Like for me I paint Warhammer but I don't play it cause I find the geeks that do play it intolerable to socilise with. And realisticly it's probably a lost case as you can't force somone to like another person or socilise with you. The reason we don't bother with taking leagel action is cause we know it's a lost cause anyway.
For what it’s worth I did settle out of court. I’m not at liberty to go into the details of that agreement but suffice it to say even though the process is still ongoing I’m quite disappointed with the outcome so far.
I’d encourage autistic people looking at suing a service provider for disability discrimination to think very carefully about what down sides an out of court settlement might have. In particular in a court of law at least you know you will have able opportunity to lay out your case in detail directly to those judging the matter.
Also in the event your hypothetical settlement involves some form of arbiter remember if the other side pays for arbitration they will likely have more contact with the arbiter than you. More chance to put their side. And even if it’s only on a subconscious level there is a tendency to be biased towards those paying for your services.
what I am at liberty to say is I took a lot of the legal research, proposals for law reform and my own case study to my MP (a member of the all party parliamentary group on autism). To her credit she put forward a strong case for my research and submissions being put before the APPGA but NAS which operates as the secretary for the APPGA effectively blocked this.
As far as NAS is concerned the APPGA doesn’t have even a moment to focus on discrimination in the form of the social exclusion of adults with autism. Although they did offer to let me offer input the next time they run a consultation on what the APPGA should spend it’s time on.
I’m currently mulling over my options. Letting things drop is not likely to be one of them.
one thing I’ve considered is starting some sort of organisation, maybe even a charity, to address this issue. NAS apparently wants to play good cop. It’s time autistic people had someone they could turn to willing to play bad cop when it comes to protecting their rights.
Even if we accept as you seem to assert that neurotypicals might find the innocently intentioned behaviour of autistic people threatening it doesn’t follow that perception is rational.
There are women who find sharing toilets with trans women threatening. People who find sharing dark alleys with black people threatening. It doesn’t follow their perception is rational or that it should be accommodated.
Part of life is sharing spaces with people you’d rather not be around. For example you can’t stop your mean boss or bitter ex from going to the same bar or event you do. It doesn’t mean you have to interact with them.
You seem to be suggesting I’m advocating forcing people to interact with autistic people? Just because someone attends an event it doesn’t follow any one has to interact with them. If they don’t want to talk they can just say so.
Many will want to interact but if some don’t no one is forcing them to do so.
I totally disagree with you about every point you made in the post above. I have no axe to grind with anyone but I try to stand in a position of logic and reason (in my opinion) so if people make contentious posts, I will ask the basis for their thoughts.
I have nothing against you at all - I seem to remember you got in over your head in a heated discussion and then backed out - so what? I don't hold any grudges or ill feelings toward you - I think I even mentioned that typing is a clumsy way of having a discussion and things would be smoother verbally as things written get other people's misinterpretation of feelings put on them where they might not exist.
I ABSOLUTELY have never mentioned anything about where you live - which until now I was unaware of - so what's your point?
From other threads you have posted on I can imagine that you are lonely and wanting a social life too - is that why you are attracted to this thread?
Do you feel legally forcing NTs out for a social evening to accept potentially threatening or disturbing behaviour from ND people to be a sensible way to go?
Perhaps it's unconcious. But i noticed you do seem to object to anyone who might have a cause they're promoting. That is one of the political positions of Dr Peterson. That you should "clean your room" on not interfere in world events. I also object to the way Ash Ington was bullied off the forums for having a different view of things from you and your friends. Maybe he was a vulnerable person who did not deserve such treatment? I do recall you were less complimentary towards my views when i joined. Insulting me when i was vulnerable and referencing the fact that i still lived at home. All because i had the temerity to have a different view of the world to you. Anyway enjoy the rest of your life. I'm sure i can have the social grace to genuinely care for someone i disagree with. It's a pity that you can't.
Like a lot of things, terms get hijacked or apply more to one group or other. I'm not interested in anyone's political views but Jordan explains how people work very well - no punches pulled, pure fact & reality. He's very astute about the individual fantasy worlds that most people inhabit.