Autism and poverty

Robert, you’re not rambling but just self-negating as you’ve been hard wired to feel rejected. You certainly  aren’t here on the forum.

Yes, poverty whether financial, emotional, psychological can all be deeply damaging and can make the journey to a better and more contented space more challenges and prone to more hurdles.

More rambling from me on how financial poverty and emotional poverty are linked.

Children go through growth spurts, where there is a period of rapid growth followed by stability.

When I was around 12, I outgrew my existing clothes ( and I looked ridiculous with trousers looking like drain pipes etc.)  And my mother was so ANGRY that she had to buy new clothes for me ( financial poverty).  She bought new clothes which were all a size or two sizes too big for me.  Saying I would grow into them.  Again I looked ridiculous with trousers looping around my shoes etc.  But I had stopped growing and the clothes wore out without me growing into them.

Yes, for me it began with financial poverty but then radiated out as the lack of money led to even more exclusion from social events, school trips and even just the costs of getting about and attending free stuff.   Plus accentuated the feelings of difference when my clothes were a bit scruffy or strange, I didn't have the same magazines as other girls, no access to the music they all started discussing or even to my parents' booze (they had none).  I even felt I couldn't accept others' invitations out of fear that I'd have to invite them back (not that I got many).      

So I'd say that financial poverty brought emotional damage in its wake.  Feelings of anxiety, insecurity, difference, shame and lack of autonomy or choice were never far away anyway, but having no money made them worse. 

Your question beat me to it.

Are we discussing just financial poverty or emotional/psychological as well?

For me the emotional damage is even worse than lack of money.

I went to normal local  schools where we were all poor.  But I was still treated badly, no friends, in the bottom classes.  

At home, my father in particular made it very clear that I was an embarrassment to him and people mustn't find out that I even exist because it would affect his reputation and standing in the community. 

Then as I got older things changed.  But didn't get better.  Just different.

At school I improved academically and when I was transferred to different classes.  The new class didn't really accept me. And the old class shunned me totally.

Enough rambling for now.  

Hey this is a very interesting topic to discuss and hear people's opinions. Also very relevant I think. 

Personally I am involved in the organisation of a symposium on Neurodiversity (incl. autism) and Employment, and I think the high unemployment rate and differences and difficulties form the employment sector is explaining a lot concerning the 'poverty' in people with autism. I would be super happy to bring up this topic at the next symposium and hear everyone's view on how we can improve this! 

For more information about the event, last event programme and videos are to be viewed here: acechildrensoccupationaltherapy.com/autism-event-at-kcl

Updates about the upcoming event (July 2019, date to be confirmed) is to be found here: neurodiversityworkforce.wordpress.com

I was thinking specifically about financial poverty in my original post but I also feel these can be strongly interlinked. 

During my teenage years, for example, our poverty impinged on just about everything else.  If, for example, you'd like to go on a school trip but there's no money for that, then you simply can't go.  Likewise, any extracurricular activities or family times away from the home.  Plus, if the home is in an atrocious state of filth and disrepair, you probably won't be inviting friends home either.  And you'll be reluctant to accept others' invitations, knowing you can't return the hospitality.  This all impacts on you psychologically, particularly if you're already finding it difficult to connect with others and make friends.

There was no shortage of love in my family home, so in a way many might compare and see me as having enjoyed great wealth.  But I can remember feeling as a teenager that nobody should have to put up with this level of poverty and I wanted to involve social services (whilst not, of course, knowing how to go about this).  It was a huge puzzle to me as well as a source of considerable distress - along the lines of, well, if I'm so loved why am I denied basic necessities and effectively excluded from most activities?

Now, as an adult, I can honestly say that my psychology has been deeply affected by this.  I don't think of myself as poor, psychologically speaking.  In fact I have a rich inner life.  However, there are clear areas of damage that have had a long term effect.  

As it stands, I find that when my finances are secure I feel buffered in the world, I can buy myself out of some difficult situations, my confidence levels increase and my general relationship with the world and other people is altered.  It definitely has an impact on my sense of self.  

Are we talking of just financial poverty here, or all flavours? I.e emotional, psychological self 

Many thanks.  What I fear is a vicious circle in which difference leads to isolation and exclusion, a precarious working life at best and possibly a whole rake of MH diagnoses which might otherwise not be associated with autism but which understandably occur in the wake of all of the other pressures.

There is some published research on this, for example:

" ... Although there is no established direct link between poverty and autism, there are numerous indirect links due to social, economic, and emotional stresses, isolation, exclusion, and unemployment; ... "

https://pure.qub.ac.uk/portal/files/23832147/BASE_Vol.5._Final_report.pdf

(quote on page 33).

Rather than focusing on what you can't do, do you mind if I ask what you feel you can do?

It's true that I do feel negative about it, especially as it seems to be an entrenched pattern across generations.  We could probably do with another thread entitled, "Why do other people behave in such a manner?" as there's so much there.  Goodness knows, it's a question that has been hurled at the heavens many times in my family. 

I suppose that, having recently been diagnosed with autism and on the verge of one of my my adult sons being diagnosed too, i am seeking to understand what has actually been happening within my family over the decades. 

This does all take place agains the heavy influence of cultural and societal factors and I can be active against these, in my own way and within my means and abilities. But I am also hoping to build in more awareness and know-how for the next generation, especially as regards keeping ourselves safe and, if at all possible, out of the malevolent clutches of the DWP.   This troubles me quite a lot.  It's also hard to do if my focus is on "What's wrong with you?", I can see that.  Maybe the focus should be on building and playing to our strengths whilst being very savvy about external influences that might change only gradually?

I don't know...   The prospect of poverty haunts me though.    And in terms of the balance of power, yes, it did feel very disempowering to be extremely poor throughout my formative years.  It added to the exclusion and isolation, the shame and despair, plus also deprived us of the wherewithal to do very much about it.  It was extremely damaging, I think.        

That question leads to further negativity because the focus then leads to blaming yourself and seeing yourself as the problem, and in doing so trying to work out what's wrong with you, which can spiral into negativity. This deflects away from the real question of "Why do other people behave in such a manner?"

It doesn't prevent you from trying to see what you can improve about yourself but puts the emphasis on understanding the actual underlying factors of the real cause in my opinion.

Thank you so much for your thoughts on this.  It all sounds very familiar and yes, I would say that the associated depression, anxiety and addiction I have seen in my family (plus experienced myself) are entirely understandable responses to adverse experiences.  Whether we would have been so vulnerable to the effects of these experiences if we'd been neurotypical is debatable but I think what we've been through is more of a reflection on society than on us.  And it does need to change. 

Toxic working practices are presumably toxic to everyone to some degree and, in losing the ND thinkers, there is, I think, a significant loss to organisations and the economy.

The prospect of poverty does worry me though.  I was squeezed out of my own accountancy role due to a final reorganisation which, curiously, left me and my job share singled out for involuntary redundancy.  Subtext - "We'll make sure we get rid of those ND part-timers this time around".  Everyone else in the department (including many who were less qualified) stayed.  

My reflections on autism and poverty have therefore mainly sprung from the question, " Why does this keep happening to us?"  But I totally accept that the link is indirect at best and cultural and structural changes are what's really needed.  

I think it's a flawed link & a lot of what's said does resonate with me. Poverty is a complex issue, but you're looking at it from the wrong angle in my opinion. I don't consider myself a problem in any way or that how my life turns out, or the lives of others, is anything down to me or other individuals. To me, the problem is society and this idea of conforming to what is normal. If we were all meant to be the same then we could have all just been created with the same DNA but we are all different. Those differences should be something we all should feel proud of but for far too long we've all fallen into the trap of continuing this dangerous cycle of following these perceived cultural and social stereotypes, which we ourselves have created. Therefore, I see the whole of society and the culture we've created to be the problem that needs to be fixed, which will provide the solution.

It's like when people tell me anxiety and depression mean I'm broken. My response is that anxiety and depression make me normal, it makes me who I am and it makes me different rather than broken. My brain is simply different, how biochemical reactions take place are different, etc. Mental Health issues are more prevalent than people like to admit at times, to the point that mental health issues are indeed normal if only we were all prepared to admit it but out of fear we all keep everything bottled up out of not wanting to conflict with our programmed ideas of social norms. I've had enough with social norms and it's about time we fought to challenge these ideas and preconceptions. Society and culture aren't static so my choice is to do what I can to challenge these things rather than simply conform to what feels like the accepted normal. I am normal for me. Now I simply need to do what I can to challenge other people to redefine what is normal.

I do consider myself poor and it is a strain with wondering what the future can hold. I grew up pushing myself, challenging myself, focusing on what I can do to improve myself, to fit in, to adapt. What I think more now is "Why did I have to do all the work of having to adapt to everyone else, why can't everyone just work towards accepting the differences?" Rather than classifying someone as weak or stupid for whatever reason, simply see them as different, a human being with a different set of skills and abilities, who with help, can achieve something whatever that may be, rather than giving up on them from the start because they don't conform to some stereotype. We're not machines or robots but human beings. I worked hard, I struggled, I got an education, which all sounds very similar to my parents. My parents worked hard, they struggled, they got an education, but they're now retired having done nothing wrong in their lives according to the idea of a government who will look after those who do the right thing, yet they just about scrape by with their pensions while my parents still work to boost their income while we live in my grandmother's house who is paying the bills. Fortunately, my grandmother does have money though the downside being that she's done nothing much to help sort out my mother in her will as her rich son (my Uncle) is considered the favourite. Ok, it's her choice if that's what she wants but I don't want to hear her talking about loving us when she's prepared to send her daughter into severe poverty to help her rich son.

Anyway, back to the point, I thought that my hard work and my ability would be an asset. Funny thing, I ended up going into Accountancy though with a lack of support I was only able to reach the final level of CIMA exams and was unable to complete it, especially when my employer did absolutely nothing about the 3 years relevant experience. Like others have stated, I put up a mask, tried to fit in, tried to appear normal, but in the end everything I did counted for nothing. I still feel like a failure for the situation I'm in but I know I'm not because it wasn't me that failed, it was my employer and society who failed me. If anything, everything I did could be considered extremely remarkable considering my starting point in life with the difficulties and challenges I had to face and struggle with where others may not have had the same determination and focus I had to keep pushing myself in the hopes of achieving success. I didn't go to work to make friends but believed that my hard work and ability would be recognised and rewarded. I'd say I was definitely recognised considering I was the 'go to' man for all sorts of things, even helping to train people who were above me in the structure, even at times being more able and qualified than them too. However, I believe that due to my lack of social skills, I was seen as someone to be feared and controlled rather than being presented with training, support and opportunities for progression. The culture of my work environment was built on division, fear, deception and manipulation where social networks counted for everything due to the nature of office politics where people want their closest allies next to them to back them up. That wasn't me or my style, for me the priority was the work and the organisation.

I only got diagnosed when I was 32 while I was at that job. All I know is that after that, I was just starting to reflect on life in a different way as I had spent my entire life focusing on the idea of conforming to what I though society expected: to get educated, get a job, build a career, be successful. This is what my time growing up had programmed me to believe because I knew I had the ability and skills to be successful but others around me prevented me from getting there. It felt like I had spent so long focusing on trying to get through the wall in front of me, doing everything I could think of to get through it but it wouldn't budge. I just started to evaluate my life, what was the point of it all, so getting a bit philosophical and the like really. I came to the conclusion that this idea of gauging life success through career achievement and salary was meaningless to a degree because I had set myself up to fail due to the fact that the system I was trying to make progress in wasn't prepared to let me continue. I was prepared to give up on the idea and settle for a simple finance job at work, which would have meant earning enough to pay the bills so that I could focus on other things. I just realised that I was getting older, I was being discriminated against, the profession was competitive with a constant flow of new entrants, I was stuck between effectively being overqualified and skilled for the entry level jobs to restart my career, which was extremely competitive, but I didn't have the opportunities, support, skills, knowledge, etc. to really progress and thrive in taking the next step in my career.

Shortly after that, my employer made me reach my limit, by even taking that simple finance job away from me in an organisational restructure where I was forced into a job I didn't want on a permanent basis. To me, it was them effectively sending the message that this was it for me and that they would put me where they wanted me to be, which was out the way and with no chance of anything beyond it. I finally broke but I had built up my own reserves of strength and resilience because I would not allow them to beat me. There's only one person who can beat me and that's me, if I had given up that would have meant giving up on myself and letting them win, letting them walk all over me and allowing them to do it. I walked out even though it would mean giving up everything I had built up in life and gambling on the unknown of what would come next. If anything though, it makes me realise what my parents went through when I was growing up and everything since then had taught me about what it meant to not give up and to keep struggling even when things were bad. If anything, it's that mentality and drive which allowed me to remain with that employer for as long as I did.

By leaving, it lifted a huge weight off my shoulders and gave me the time and space to think about my life and lots of other things. I had fallen into the same trap and had ended up believing that it was the way I had to live, which then limited me and my options. I'm not exactly saying I have loads of options in life right now but I understand what's at stake with a society, culture and system that is built to fail so many people. So, I state once again, this doesn't have to be the way things are, we can change it and we should all be striving to do so. Just like we in the UK have recently celebrated that some women gained the right to vote 100 years ago, the fight for change, for equality, for fairness, for justice is a fight that we must all do our part in rather than accepting that the way things are is the way they must remain. It will take time for change to take place but we must not let these same cycles continue on.

Yes, my impression is that the cracks have been deliberately widened.  

The problem with autism is this invisible difference or disability that is difficult to describe in words.

I have had problems through my entire life.

A few years before the debacle described above I was on a government sponsored electronics course.  I then transferred to a centre much closer to home.  

At my exit interview at the old centre I was asked to fill out a lot of paperwork and my trainer showed me the questions the new centre was asking him about me.  And he said very calmly,

" Obviously,  I'm not going to tell them the truth about you"

I was so taken back I couldn't speak.  And even today I regret that I didn't ask him what exactly did he mean by that statement.

It is very worrying.  With insecure work and cuts to the welfare state people can slip between the cracks and end up with little or nothing.

That's horrible but also very vague, with no information or feedback that might have helped you.  I don't know what anyone is supposed to make of comments such as not fitting in, not belonging and others being terrified as this just sounds like character assassination with no detail as to why he felt that way, what actions you might take to remedy things or whether there was anything you did do well.  The employment advisor sounds really unprofessional too. 

Managers who say you don't belong and employment advisors who say they give up - makes me wonder how suited they were to their own roles, to be honest.  :( 

My most embarrassing situation was in 2000 and a Tesco training scheme.

Tesco were opening a new hypermarket and were looking for local staff.

The training scheme was a joint venture between Tesco, the DWP and the city council.  

At the end of two weeks we were guaranteed an interview for an actual job.

At that time I was applying for retail jobs, so the job centre sent me on the scheme making it clear that if I left without completing it or if I was kicked out for any reason, then my benefits would be stopped.

At the end of the first week, I was called into the centre's general manager's office and he told me to leave.  I refused and asked for his reasons.  Throughout the week I was always on time, did everything that was asked and behaved myself.  Eventually after much hesitation he gave me a list.

1. I didn't fit in with the rest of the group.
2. I didn't belong there.
3. The trainers were terrified of me.
4. A supermarket wouldn't employ me in a million years.
5. There is no point in staying here any longer.
6. And he would arrange for my benefits to continue if I left.

So back to the job centre, where my employment advisor threw her arms in the air and said. " I give up!"

Yes, the situation with the DWP is dire, I think.  I imagine it'd be easy to fall into a pattern of being bounced between employers and the Jobcentre+ as the government's threshold for capability to work is much lower than that of many employers.  Likewise many employers' pension schemes take a similar view - "We can't continue to employ you in THIS role but in order to qualify for your pension you must be incapable of taking on ANY role.  Unfortunately we have no suitable roles so you need to go to the Jobcentre."