What are the barriers to acceptance and understanding?

That’s brilliant Lonewarrior, I’m really happy for you. My Friday morning autism group is beginning to be a fundamental part of my life and I’ve even joined another group as well now, or at least I nearly have. 

When I’m with my group, I’m so happy. It’s so easy to be around them. We understand each other. Last week it was clear I wasn’t myself, I was exhausted and tearful so one of the women noticed and got me to sit down with her (I’m usually sat with the boys but sitting with her was immensely  helpful). I was able to tell her how I was feeling and she totally understood which, it turned out, was exactly what I needed. 

Just now I’ve just come back from having a coffee with one of my friends from the group as my support worker said it’s important that I keep in touch with them and she was right. I just had the best time ever. I asked my friend what his special interests were and one of them is watching old footage of black and white football games. I mean, come on, how frigging interesting is that!!! That makes me smile from the inside out. I adore the conversations I have with my autistic friends. I love how innocent we are. How utterly honest and kind we are and how we explain things so clearly. I no longer feel the need to fit in with nt’s, I’ve got my own group now, my own tribe, my own people, and I couldn’t be happier. We’ve started to go out once a month for a meal together and I really enjoy that too. I can just be myself and just being around others like me is all I need in life. My life is complete. 

I’ve also got a one to one specialist autism worker now and she’s helping me to work on the basics of every day life such as eating and drinking regularly and now I’ve got that support, everything feels less urgent and the years of trying to fit in have faded into the background. Now, people either fit in to my way of being or they are no longer in my life because never again will I compromise myself. Today I met my work coache’s manager (at the job centre) because my work coach apparently wrote an article about me called a good news story. She’s been so helpful to me when she could have banned me from the job centre. I nearly  caused a lock down situation in there last week when I started kicking off because there was a que and I didn’t want to stand in it. I told her on my first day there that I would rather rip my own guts out, eat them, then kill myself than get a job and instead of saying I had to get a job, she took the time to find out what help I needed and she got it for me. She arranged for me to have my first support worker and now the specialist autism worker as it was clear that my first worker could only take me so far due to her limited understanding of autism. She didn’t know what to do with me but that’s all been resolved now and I’m finally getting the help I always knew I needed but couldn’t put into words. Having other autistic people in my life is key to my happiness and having the right support is enabling me, slowly but surely, to build a life around me. Never again will I learn to ‘manage’ situations, rather I am learning to simply not have these ‘situations’ in my life in the first place. My work coach told me today, even if I’m still here (at the job centre) in 12 months time, it doesn’t matter, I’m working on what’s important to me and that’s all that matters and that she’ll continue to support me with that. Stay in touch with your new friend. It will make a huge difference in your life. 

Hahaha ~ speaking for myself, I know that I can be both shockingly awful in what I say and how I say it at times  but I think generally, it’s a combination of both. I know that when I’m talking about something I’m passionate about, I can appear even aggressive to some people, yet that perception couldn’t be further from the truth but I can see how it can be seen that way. 

Good to be back. I’ve missed you guys but I was getting realisation after realisation and needed tons of solitude to process all this new stuff, but glad to be back :-) 

Hi blueRay just wanted to say your words,,,

“I generally tell people within the first second of meeting them that I’m autistic and as much as I sometimes try to keep quite about a special interest, for example, I often don’t manage it and I’ll bore people to death with my special interest!”.

Recently I have had occasion’s where I was asked if I was Aspergers? One was a young male who is Aspergers himself, I asked him what gave him the idea I was Aspergers to which he replied

“ well hearing you say how you would spend hours researching and writing details down, and your likes for all things no matter how strange or bizarre, and that you have decided to dress in a way that now makes you feel comfortable”. 

I had met my first definite aspie, I then started asking and telling him all about me, I was like a child excited, he seemed to fully understand me, he was super cool with being aspie and said he understood it was difficult for those of us finding out so late.

 He said life was good and acceptance was ok, so maybe things are better for some now, 

take care. 

I’m creating my world around me and that means I rarely mix with nt’s these days and I feel much happier about that. It’s not that I exclude them, it’s just that we’re not on the same wave length so unless I’ve got a specific purpose for talking to someone, I generally don’t bother. 

Hi BlueRay

Really good to hear from you as its been a while.  My main thrust was that was it HOW we communicate (our communication style) that causes the barrier or WHAT we communicate (this is me!).  I used the analogy nice meal, badly presented..... or it is all shocking awful!! - lol!

are we ok and acceptable?!?!? ~ who is making that decision?

Curses....is this mean hung up on seeking approval and permission from others again!!!

good to hear from you!

Hello lovely person (Eli) and persons  I haven’t read all the comments yet but I’ve made a good start. I’ll pick up from here ~ 

‘The thread is intended to probe this idea of are we ok and acceptable, or, is it just the way we present ourselves to others, our manner, also a possibile difficulty to be understood and explain who we are and our needs and aspirations’ ~ are we ok and acceptable?!?!? ~ who is making that decision? To me, I’m perfectly ok and acceptable but there are times when others, quite rightly, would not agree with that, particularly when I’m having a melt down because I don’t want to stand in a line in the job centre and I’m swearing and shouting!!! Lol! And I carry a card now to say I’m on the spectrum which makes me feel a lot safer. 

I generally tell people within the first second of meeting them that I’m autistic and as much as I sometimes try to keep quite about a special interest, for example, I often don’t manage it and I’ll bore people to death with my special interest! 

Unless a person is consciously aware/awake, they will only ever see another person through their eyes. So how they see themselves, they will see others and judge and weigh up others according to who they think they are and their life experiences. So I don’t worry anymore what others think of me because even if it’s true what they’re thinking, it’s only ever one aspect of me. I think that the way I communicate, which is often to talk ‘at’ people, reeling off info about my special subject, and my inability and refusal to do small talk, can seem like I’m very self absorbed, I suppose, but then again, my support worker recently told me that when I’m talking about one of my passions, I’m hypnotic to listen to and she enjoys listening to me. There’s a difference between how we and how nt’s communicate so unless there’s an openness on both sides, conversations won’t generally run too smoothly. Not like, for instance, when I’m with my friends at my autism group. I adore our random and weird conversations so these days that’s who I socialise with. I’ve just joined another autism group as well and that’s how I like it now. I’m creating my world around me and that means I rarely mix with nt’s these days and I feel much happier about that. It’s not that I exclude them, it’s just that we’re not on the same wave length so unless I’ve got a specific purpose for talking to someone, I generally don’t bother. 

As a child I could never understand how the other children could be friends one day and enemies the next, be kind to someone to their face but slag them off to others behind their back, or lie so well and so frequently. I was really put off the idea of mixing with them because they all seemed so unpredictable and unpleasant. Over the years I realised that some were nicer than others, and it wasn't fair to assume all were bad, but rarely managed to find the motivation to try to bridge the gap. Efforts to do so often fell flat anyway.

As an adult I'm now OK at socialising on a superficial level, and will wait and see whether a person is friendly or not instead of just assuming they're not. But I neither want nor need to get really close to anyone except my family. I used to open up more in church, because I thought the people there were more accepting, but have had some bad experiences even there.

I know that it comes across as arrogant and superior. I wish it were possible to remain mostly isolated without it being perceived as an insult by others, because no insult is intended. I'm just tired of being hurt and of offending others because I didn't understand situations until too late. If a neurotypical person could really understand that fact, and accept it, AND not try to sort it out or push me to get out more, I think that would be a big step forward.

Cassandro said:

I think honesty and directness is a good thing and it may be our best tactic for being understood and finding a common basis for understanding. We can't necessarily expect people to comprehend first time, but we can help them comprehend, through, among other things, autistic-led training.

I agree.  I had a situation at work last week where I was asked, not long before finishing, if I would drive another service user home.  Her day had been planned badly, she was late, and there wasn't another driver available.  If I accepted, it would mean I would be at least 20 minutes late finishing (throwing my evening routine out) and I wouldn't be able to finish writing the daily report for my own service user (something she would get anxious about if it wasn't finished).  So I refused.  The manager then got huffy with me and walked off.  This put me in another pit of anxiety because I felt I'd let other people down.  I took that home and had a sleepless night on it.  Next day, I spoke to my manager and explained things properly.  I wasn't refusing because I was simply being uncooperative, selfish or stubborn (something she'd assumed, based on her experiences with some of the other staff), but because I simply can't manage to do something spontaneously like that, leaving work unfinished, and throwing my evening routine out.  I told her how anxious it had made me, and why.  She's worked with autistic people for many years, but she admits that she still doesn't 'get' it.  The other thing is that the people we work with are low-functioning - so she looks at them, then looks at me, and struggles to make the connection.  I had to explain that, in spite of those huge differences, I'm like them in many ways.  Routines, difficulties with spontaneity, etc.  I think she understands better now.  She was grateful for my honesty.  And she concluded with 'I personally like to do things spontaneously... but we're all different, aren't we.'  Hm.

I think the 'infrahumanisation' belief is pretty cogent.  We see it in most forms of human social groupings.  The Hindu 'caste' system, the various stratifications that run through political and religious groups, the rich and the poor, the class system, gender/sexuality variations, racial and cultural differences... and, at more basic levels, neighbourhoods, clubs, workplace cliques.  It seems quite reasonable, then, to think that NT and ND differences may create a similar set of judgments.  We can see for ourselves, on the forums and elsewhere, how many ND people can regard NTs as 'less than' in some way - not just different.  Similarly, NTs will have different responses to someone's telling them they're autistic - depending on how well-informed they are.  I know some pretty intelligent NTs who are nevertheless apprehensive around discussions about autism.  Many still make the automatic connection with 'learning disabilities', or with stereotyped ideas about 'unempathetic', 'anti-social', etc.  I also hear all the time - I'm sure most of us do - the old thing of 'That's not autism.  Everyone gets anxiety', and so on.  Maybe that's a way of trying to 'humanise' us more!

Trainspotter said:

Some time ago, I was pulled up by a manager for 'rocking on my chair' and 'staring'.  I know it looks as though I am staring, but I am just looking at nothing.

Trainspotter said:

It was then suggested that a 'behaviour agreement' was put into place, something I vigourously fought against and which I suggested should be an 'understanding and acceptance agreement'.

Very well done. I'd find that idea of a 'behaviour agreement' not just patronising and controlling, but outrageously intrusive and discriminatory. It's bad enough when a workplace demands things that may be under your control, eg EDS banning beards, but this sounds effectively like telling you to change your coping mechanisms or personality.

. said:

What, for you creates the “gulf of understanding”?

I think the Quora answers were interesting. I agree it's not particular behaviours that make typicals uncomfortable, it's more their expectations that make them uncomfortable. Having said that, I wish there had been more answers to the question from typicals. I'm writing as someone who isn't very obviously autistic and have been trying to find answers to Ellie's question as they can be quite subtle. Before my diagnosis I had thought of myself as a 'geek interpreter' having a moderate 'geek quotient' (I can't remember the exact questionnaire) and able to talk to geeks and non-geeks.

One NT answer at Quora focused on 'personal space', and I find this with autistic people myself and may back halfway across the room because my reserved space is larger than that of the person talking to me. I suppose attire (in my case a bit shabby) and personal hygiene may be factors too. But a lot of what may not meet typical expectations are things we don't do. Sometimes autistic people don't talk; sometimes we don't reveal our feelings or what's going on in our minds; sometimes we don't smile.  Sometime we enter a conversation without saying 'hello' or 'excuse me', which may seem rude, but I want to stress that it's probably better than not feeling able to enter the conversation at all.  If people do realise we're a bit different, they may not know the reason, or if they do have some notion of the label, they feel they should react differently and should know how, but don't.

I think a 'gulf of understanding', or rather misunderstanding, can come about partly because of differences in whether or not implicit values are attached to factual statements, or how that is done. A lot of my communication is objective and factual, but people may ascribe intentions to it that aren't mine. Meanwhile, when I do want to express a desire or opinion, maybe to talk about something by referring to it in a joke, it is ignored. Further it seems if I am arguing a particular way, people will miss the main points because I assume they can see the logic (some might say this was subtly lacking theory or intuition of mind, but that surely also applies in the other direction) and go off on tangent about a detail of some example or analogy I used. None of this is necessarily confined to ­ autistic–typical communication.

I worry we may worry too much about what other people think, and then inhibit our actions. Maybe that's because I'm not often called rude, but even if I were I know the danger of backing off and retreating is greater than embarrassment and a cause to slightly modify communication habits. I think an example like Tom's cycling down a path really could happen to anyone. It's not as though typical people have a better 'adar' (autistic radar) than autistic people, and it would seem to be the reverse. So could some of this be 'overthinking' or hypersensitive perception on our part?  I think honesty and directness is a good thing and it may be our best tactic for being understood and finding a common basis for understanding. We can't necessarily expect people to comprehend first time, but we can help them comprehend, through, among other things, autistic-led training.

DragonCat16 said:

We draw conclusions based on logic and they draw conclusions based on some kind of primitive animal instinct mixed in with several different types of cognitive bias that plague their entire way of thinking.

I don't think it's right to say typical people aren't capable of logical thought. In fact, to an extent everyone probably has cognitive bias and reasons back from a 'moral' conclusion  (see Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind). That implies a capacity for logic, if a disappointing misuse of it. Reason is only ever a slave of passion. The above comment can't help but remind me of the supposed average neurological and psychological differences between political left and right. Right-wing people tend to have a larger right amygdala, responsible for basing quick decisions on fear and disgust, including of social outgroups (even maybe 'infrahumanisation' that Graham introduced me to); while left wing people have larger parts of the cortex that evaluate new data. There are obviously right-wing autistic people, but there may be some correlation along that dimension, particularly given that the amygdala is important for social connection.  I'm sure many typical people can see they need to adapt as much as us.  Sorry that was a bit of a detour.

Disambiguating Cynosure said:

In my constant paranoia, in that particular situation, I would have dismounted, but then the person would have found some other thing ELSE to pick upon (e.g. going too fast, veering some way, having a pushbike at all)... absolutely anything.

The point was, it was his chosen form of communication that got my back up.  He could just as easily have called out, in friendly tones, 'Excuse me.  Do you realise there's no cycling on that path?'  That's how I would have approached it.  But no.  He was being deliberately belligerent, as if I was a child.  And that tone, too, took me back to when I was a child, and the way I'd been spoken to at school quite often by teachers.  If there had been people around, I wouldn't have cycled on the path anyway.  But the place was empty.  In those circumstances, and given his manner, I continued cycling - slowly, as I was going, anyway.  There are better ways that I could have handled the situation.  But when someone is aggressive towards you, it throws that out of the window.  It seems to me more and more that people (I won't say NTs especially) default to aggression in any such altercations.  Such as when I politely spoke to a motorist about her use of a mobile phone when driving... and she scowled and gave me the finger.  Great communication, that.

Emma said:

I had a problem with a work colleague many years ago that boiled down to a lot of issues that (while I accept they must have been very irritating or appeared very rude/dismissive from a NT perspective) stemmed from my autism, but even when she had been made aware of the reason she didn't seem to want to know about the root cause or change her approach- even as I was trying my best to change mine.

My ex-partner - who had BPD, and who was also very demanding and controlling - refused to accept that her behaviour had any influence over mine.  We had frequent rows about her refusal to do household chores ('I find them too exhausting'), her untidiness, the way she controlled every situation, etc.  I drank more to cope with the anxiety and frustration that living with her evoked.  But everything was down to me and my condition - which, even though she knew about and purported to understand - she also insisted I was using as an excuse.  It was a very tough time.

Second half of "Emma"'s Post... I agree with Miss "Ellie" -very good points. A different language, even when we are all saying the same thing, there. (What a pity...)

I needed that swim to cool off.  Whilst I was in the water, I noticed other cyclists coming down that path - and much faster than I'd been going.  He ignored them.

Maybe he knew I was an Aspie!

Greetings... I post this as if to sympathise...

In my constant paranoia, in that particular situation, I would have dismounted, but then the person would have found some other thing ELSE to pick upon (e.g. going too fast, veering some way, having a pushbike at all)... absolutely anything.

Further as if to sympathise...I myself get this from "beggars" ...A LOT. They always yell at me, or walk after me, then they "curse" (f-word, of course.) Yet when I am far enough away, I look back and I notice, and I observe: "Oh, yes, you pick upon me, but not the twenty other people passing by you, I see!!"

I see this so often that I am totally fed up of it. With regards to this Thread, I next here suggest something strange, yet scientific, however: The Frequency at which WE (Autistic) think is different to NTs, and so even if we earn their respect, we are still seen as difficult and so are singled out.

. said:

What, for you creates the “gulf of understanding”?

...The Frequency difference is what I would say. Many times I would say something, and it is met with displeasure, yet someone else would say exactly the same thing, and that is accepted!

The biggest barrier to understanding an autistic person is being a neurotypical person.

Some time ago, I was pulled up by a manager for 'rocking on my chair' and 'staring'.  I know it looks as though I am staring, but I am just looking at nothing.  Just looking through someone in an attempt to mask my lack of eye contact. It tends to put me in some sort of trance when I neither really look at someone or hear what they are saying.  It was then suggested that a 'behaviour agreement' was put into place, something I vigourously fought against and which I suggested should be an 'understanding and acceptance agreement'.

A neurotypical, because they can actually control to a very great extent what they are doing and how they react to others, imagines this should be true of an autistic person.  They think that we can control the way we react to things and we are just 'trying it on'.  To appear how others want me to requires the acting skills worthy of an academy award, and then results in much anxiety.  If I misunderstand what a neurotypical says, usually this is thought of as me being awkward and deliberately obtuse.

Never having been a neurotypical person, I can only guess at what goes on in their strange minds.  But I do know that I am meant to be some sort of mindreader and be able to decypher strange communication, whereas as someonone autistic I am meant to accept certain training techniques to prevent me from speaking bluntly and saying what I mean.  All very confusing and it is no wonder we are misunderstood.

A good response Emma and very measured. Yes, effort to gauge and jump the divide is an issue and you’re right it is like we’re talking a second language unless we’re talking to each other.

almost two separate tribes

Lots of things, but mainly I think lack of knowledge. 

I find that NTs who are receiving different messages to the ones I am trying to project (due to the autistic alternative ways of communicating) are much more likely to put it down to rudeness or me not liking them (and treat me accordingly) than even consider the possibility of autism. An awful lot of NTs have very little knowledge of autism, or inaccurate ideas about what it is or how autistic people differ from NTs. 

Then there's a number of NTs (in my experience a small but significant number- most are really good about it when I disclose but that could be me being lucky in my acquaintances) who don't seem to desire knowledge- the ones who, even when told "it's an aspie/autism thing", continue to act on this false assumption of rudeness. I'm really not sure why that is.

I had a problem with a work colleague many years ago that boiled down to a lot of issues that (while I accept they must have been very irritating or appeared very rude/dismissive from a NT perspective) stemmed from my autism, but even when she had been made aware of the reason she didn't seem to want to know about the root cause or change her approach- even as I was trying my best to change mine.

Maybe because it was just easier to continue not liking me and therefore having an excuse to limit interaction with me as much as possible than learn a whole new way of communicating. :/ I guess it's a bit like "how many hearing people bother to learn sign language?"- very few that don't actually use it in everyday life because they have dealings with deaf or non-verbal people who rely on it. I certainly don't know any (beyond most of the alphabet, because it was a bit of a trend to learn that much at my primary school to use as a sort of secret code- it would have to be a conversation of spelling things out if I ever met a deaf person). 

Humans will generally avoid what is difficult to do and choose the path of least resistance, which is unfortunate when you're part of a minority whose path of least resistance depends on others taking a harder route. 

Of course the way society is structured physically doesn't help with the gulf of understanding either- a lot of us could muddle by using a bit of "NT as a second language" if it wasn't for simultaneously dealing with the sensory problems caused by everyday structures/occurrences!

DragonCat16 said:

There is no way a being who behaves according to the rules of logic can ever really make a connection with a creature who is completely incapable of logical reasoning. THAT is why we can't communicate with them. We draw conclusions based on logic and they draw conclusions based on some kind of primitive animal instinct mixed in with several different types of cognitive bias that plague their entire way of thinking.

Yes.....

so cross wires, misfires, both parties retire to their respective corners of existence

DragonCat16 said:

There is no way a being who behaves according to the rules of logic can ever really make a connection with a creature who is completely incapable of logical reasoning. THAT is why we can't communicate with them.

Haha!  I had an example of that today.  I decided to go down to the beach for a swim.  I deliberately chose the quiet end of the beach so as to avoid people.  To get from the road to the part of the beach where I was headed, I had to descend a short path - around 30 yards.  There's a sign at the top of that path that states 'No Cycling'.  Fair enough.  And if there had been people using the path, I would have dismounted.  But the path was empty.  So was the beach.  There was no one around at all - except a chap sitting on a bench by the road, up and over to my left, a good 50 feet away from me.  I freewheeled my bike down the path.  Silence.  Then, from the chap on the bench:

"Oi!  There's no cycling on that path.  Can't you see the sign?"

I said 'yes', I'd seen the sign - but as there was no one around, I'd decided that a minor transgression was alright.

"You could hit a pedestrian," he bellowed on.

I stopped.

"What pedestrian?  There's no one around except you and me."

"That doesn't matter," he fulminated.  "The sign says 'No Cycling'.  You know you're in the wrong."

Honestly!  I needed that swim to cool off.  Whilst I was in the water, I noticed other cyclists coming down that path - and much faster than I'd been going.  He ignored them.

Maybe he knew I was an Aspie!

I think the biggest thing that causes misunderstandings is that NTs simply do not behave in a logical way and we (naively, according to them) expect things to be logical.

They expect us to follow rules that don't exist and certainly arent written down anywhere, while they are perfectly fine with others of their kind not following the rules that DO exist and ARE written down. Breaking an unwritten rule carries a much stiffer penalty than breaking an actual rule (the latter rarely carries any penalty at all, depending on the popularity level of the perpetrator, of course).

Why do they bother making rules, policies, and laws, anyway? Nobody follows them, after all, and usually nobody even knows what they are (except for us, of course). The rules were originally meant to make sure that things are done in a fair way, but if they aren't followed, or if they are selectively enforced, it would be better if they didn't exist. It would at least be much less confusing for us.

There is no way a being who behaves according to the rules of logic can ever really make a connection with a creature who is completely incapable of logical reasoning. THAT is why we can't communicate with them. We draw conclusions based on logic and they draw conclusions based on some kind of primitive animal instinct mixed in with several different types of cognitive bias that plague their entire way of thinking.

The shortcoming is theirs, not ours. However, because there are more of them, they like to think that they are superior and we are flawed, and they'll never acknowledge that the reverse is true. Why? Because they are not capable of  logical thought, so they are also incapable of drawing an intelligent conclusion, such as that maybe the fault doesn't lie entirely with us.

Isn’t that just a form of masking in order to make the self palatable? Mars and Venus eh?