Defiant behaviour ruining our family

Thank you to those who responded and asked for examples. A typical example is bedtime. We have a routine that has been adapted as the children grew and always was very successful until three years ago it is including calming activities etc but she regularly seems to begin to resist the routine (specifically shower and teeth brushing which she hates) she refuses to do something she is calm initially just saying no I won't be doing that. Sometimes we say that's ok if she has washed recently or if she becomes angry and aggressive we calmly tell her it's ok we can do it in the morning instead. This escalates to where we have given privacy to get ready with clear time to complete getting changed. However she is will get distracted and if we leave she will go to to her brother's room and start taking things from his room and causing him to get upset with her asking her to leave and give things back. We return and ask her to leave his room she tells us she isn't in his room whilst in his room. She begins to get angry shouting at us that I'm not going to bed you can't make me. We continue to calmly encourage her to get changed using distraction to help which sometimes does IE discussing what's happened today. If it doesn't work she starts throwing things around her room and at us. We ask if she would like space to be on her own she screams yes then tells us we always just leave her. We sit outside her room whilst we hear her removing things from under her bed and under she goes. When it's quiet I go in and lay next to her bed asking her is she is ok and what she would find helpful. We convince her to come out then just as she seems to calm she jumps up and runs under her desk with a notepad to say she is writing a story or a book to read. We tell her she can do this for a couple of minutes then she needs to go to bed. She nods and becomes mute choosing to write instead. We sit outside or go downstairs. Returning as promised she seems a different person chatting happily like nothing happened about her story. We think success and get her into bed. Song and story back into routine. We go downstairs. She appears a few minutes later laying on the floor at our feet. We ask her to return to bed as it's now Very late. She ignores us and refuses to speak writing things instead whilst screeching like an animal at us. At this point we either calmly return to the same type of calmly trying to encourage her or we get cross and say that's enough and carry her to bed whilst she screeches. Sometimes our change into getting cross pulls her out and she breaks down sobbing that she hates herself and wants to run away other times she rises up to match us. Eventually she tires herself out one way or the other. 

Even before I got to the part where she yells that you always just leave her, I could sense that this is a big part of the problem. Once this problem, or conflict has been created, she will then require (like any grown adult) resolution as now internally she's not longer calm. In the creative arts, we stress journal writing before bed to help perform a necessary calming task that one might perform in a therapists office: expelling the internal conflicts so they can be resolved. 

She feels abandoned. Now, this isn't your fault, as leaving a (typical) child to do a thing themselves is a way of teaching or allowing a sense of agency. With Autistic and ADHD children, we afford agency when they finally 'take the reins and ask us to leave'. OR we afford agency with Creative tasks. Autistic and ADHD children have a few things in common at their core - executive function difficulty (this can be related to their internal 'chaotic' minds, a sense of everything-all-at-once from a difficulty filtering out unwanted signals/sensory sources) and a need to feel connected (not unique, not alone, not marginalised, as they are overwhelmingly aware of how different they are from everyone else. This is daunting for a child).

Teeth brushing, getting changed, ritualistic tasks we perform as part of our modern society are all things better done together. In an anthropological setting, humans didn't do these things. Most of us didn't read 200 years ago, as a species our innate selves lived very different lives. Executive Function wasn't required - we moved with nature, not against it (to some degree).

Right now there seems to be this moment of impact that she responds to - leaving her to an overwhelming task alone. And internally, this severs her ability to trust you care about her overall well-being. Which then compounds the task as if she's been severed from the whole collective, left to 'do' life in isolation. It has an emotional impact and sets in motion a whole evening of unnecessary added problems. As a parent, it took me a long time to learn to say "how can I help" or "help me understand how I'm hurting you". The bigger problem is, they have a limited command of language and if they're already in survival mode, emotional regulation is now gone. 

Here's what I'd suggest. Put a little extra effort in for these night time 'tasks' by turning them into a Team Effort. This may sound a bit much, but think of it this way - spending 20 minutes with her in these ritualistic routines will save an entire evening of unnecessary heartbreak (and she won't need to pay a therapist when she's 30 to try and work out why she felt abandoned).  Perform brushing teeth as team work: she holds the toothbrush & you apply the paste (or reverse if this seems more fun). Give her the option between 2 PJs if applicable and have her hand clothes to her like 2 friends in a clothing shop. Bring a cup of tea with, perform these together as if you're just 'hanging out'. Read her the story and sing the songs while in the shower or bath. 

The first Problem in a Horror film is always severed communication. The audience knows that only misfortune will follow. Do whatever is necessary to stay connected. Erich Fromm talks of Isolation as being the entry point to all addiction, to anything in the human heart which goes wrong, to being the root cause of almost anything which goes wrong. Create a sense of connectedness and your children will feel a sense of being anchored, the consequence is they'll trust you, and you'll find you won't ever need to make demands or 'discipline' them. 

Even before I got to the part where she yells that you always just leave her, I could sense that this is a big part of the problem. Once this problem, or conflict has been created, she will then require (like any grown adult) resolution as now internally she's not longer calm. In the creative arts, we stress journal writing before bed to help perform a necessary calming task that one might perform in a therapists office: expelling the internal conflicts so they can be resolved. 

She feels abandoned. Now, this isn't your fault, as leaving a (typical) child to do a thing themselves is a way of teaching or allowing a sense of agency. With Autistic and ADHD children, we afford agency when they finally 'take the reins and ask us to leave'. OR we afford agency with Creative tasks. Autistic and ADHD children have a few things in common at their core - executive function difficulty (this can be related to their internal 'chaotic' minds, a sense of everything-all-at-once from a difficulty filtering out unwanted signals/sensory sources) and a need to feel connected (not unique, not alone, not marginalised, as they are overwhelmingly aware of how different they are from everyone else. This is daunting for a child).

Teeth brushing, getting changed, ritualistic tasks we perform as part of our modern society are all things better done together. In an anthropological setting, humans didn't do these things. Most of us didn't read 200 years ago, as a species our innate selves lived very different lives. Executive Function wasn't required - we moved with nature, not against it (to some degree).

Right now there seems to be this moment of impact that she responds to - leaving her to an overwhelming task alone. And internally, this severs her ability to trust you care about her overall well-being. Which then compounds the task as if she's been severed from the whole collective, left to 'do' life in isolation. It has an emotional impact and sets in motion a whole evening of unnecessary added problems. As a parent, it took me a long time to learn to say "how can I help" or "help me understand how I'm hurting you". The bigger problem is, they have a limited command of language and if they're already in survival mode, emotional regulation is now gone. 

Here's what I'd suggest. Put a little extra effort in for these night time 'tasks' by turning them into a Team Effort. This may sound a bit much, but think of it this way - spending 20 minutes with her in these ritualistic routines will save an entire evening of unnecessary heartbreak (and she won't need to pay a therapist when she's 30 to try and work out why she felt abandoned).  Perform brushing teeth as team work: she holds the toothbrush & you apply the paste (or reverse if this seems more fun). Give her the option between 2 PJs if applicable and have her hand clothes to her like 2 friends in a clothing shop. Bring a cup of tea with, perform these together as if you're just 'hanging out'. Read her the story and sing the songs while in the shower or bath. 

The first Problem in a Horror film is always severed communication. The audience knows that only misfortune will follow. Do whatever is necessary to stay connected. Erich Fromm talks of Isolation as being the entry point to all addiction, to anything in the human heart which goes wrong, to being the root cause of almost anything which goes wrong. Create a sense of connectedness and your children will feel a sense of being anchored, the consequence is they'll trust you, and you'll find you won't ever need to make demands or 'discipline' them. 

From reading more it's beginning to sound like ADHD - less sleep, quick changes, usually good at communicating, but possibly severe difficulties with executive function. I might suggest to inquire down this path first. But then still, a daughter needs a mother to sometimes just do things with her, connexion or just being present never hurts :) x

Thank you so much for that clip what an interesting video and such a lot of useful information. As we don't know which or if both are at play it's a balancing act but this information is so helpful I'm improving our understanding. 

Thank you for taking the time to write this for us. She is normally very good at communicating and is actually very aware of her own behaviour and often openly discusses with us her worries and concerns. We have always been a very open and honest family providing opportunities to discuss feelings and worries without pressure or judgement but she seems to get so lost she becomes like a different person and I find that scary if I'm honest as though I've lost her. I can see she is a scared overwhelmed child but this angry one just keeps pushing me away. I know it isn't personal but when she tells me she hates me it feels personal. I will definitely take on board your ideas and thoughts and continue to learn how she needs me to respond in different situations as we are finding what she wants from us changes frequently and we are all learning. 

Oh my lordie....another "ohhhh - that's why" penny drops !

Thank you Juniper.

Have a look at this video on "Body Doubling": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni9biXNDZe0

This young woman helps make sense of a great deal of Autistic/ADHD traits. Internally, these two neurodivergent types are wired very similar. The differences are usually external. ADHD love the chaos, require less sleep and need physical exhaustion. Autistics want external order to balance the internal chaos, require at least 8 hours sleep, prefer solo-focused exercises like judo or yoga and need intellectual exhaustion.