Urgent - getting more violent now - 14 year old son

Thanks Deep for such an insightful post.

P.S. Due to website timing errors and notices that kept on popping up stating as much, and that I need to inform the site administrator ~ I lost the start of my version of the above posting which I started writing this time yesterday.

So I copied the post (which was all I could do here at that time) and pasted it in my computer's word processor ~ and likewise once written copied from there and pasted it in its almost completed form here, what with having to edit out typos etc.

It was rather intriguing to find much the same architecture (or note arrangements) of later responses before I actually posted, yet each one differently constructed (or composed) of course ~ but in every single case so very much more concisely written ;-)

Hey ho! :-)

paulponty said:

One thing I just don't understand is his total lack of seeing consequences. In all honesty, all he sees is his PC - nothing else matters.

Abstract thinking, such as imagining what in the present leads to what in the future, is a particular weakness, or even an inability, for people with autism.

Concrete thinking, such as relating with what is objectively what ~ and what goes subjectively where at the actual time, and in the actual space ~ is a particular autistic strength.

paulponty said:

Even his OCD doesnt stress him - he treats it as more of an inconveniece that takes him away from his PC.

I suspect that your son does not have OCD, but is in instead just carrying out a Reproductive (life affirming) Behaviour Pattern, as connects and correlates with his other Reproductive (life-affirming) Behaviour Pattern (or RBP) involving ~ PC time.

OCD involves stress as a ‘Catch-22’ feedback loop ~ resulting in overzealous perseverance, for a semi delusional purpose (such as scrubbing skin off to wash bacteria off the hands); whereas RBP (Reproductive Behaviour Patterns) involve stress management, and energy efficiency, for a real time objective (obviously again ~ PC time).

paulponty said:

Which I guess is why hes not interested in taking time to do things the counsellor asks - its more time away from PC, easier to just continue as is? Dunno.

Having autism means being self-centric, or self-oriented, as which involves not having an innate sense of what other people are thinking about, and problems therefore result in terms of not being able to relate that well with what other people are speaking about [– especially regarding the future!].

This correlates with what are called by some the Triad of Impairments, as involve restricted abilities or inabilities regarding Social Imagination, Social Interaction, and Social Communication, to varying percentages (which are useful to know).

Also, [along with these ‘by percentile socially restricted abilities’, and or ‘inabilities’] people with the more masculine form of autism tend more to have unusually narrow ranges interest, or singular focuses of attention.

paulponty said:

One thing I don't understand. Last week we almost called the police. He knows this and he knows how serious it was. He was VERY upset afterwards.

Being very upset afterwards involves having experienced traumatic emotional and mental disassociation before, i.e. during the instinctual compulsion (I presume violence or aggression) that brought about almost calling the police.

So basically his fury possessed him, and his sorrow returned him.

In terms of emotional age proficiency then; he may be an immature preadolescent, and thus in part the childlike temper tantrums ~ as derive from personal restrictions and frustrations regarding his autonomy, and in terms of mental age proficiency ~ he may either be an immature or mature adolescent, and thus in part also the teenage rebellions ~ as derive from social afflictions and aggressions against his individuality.

Simply then ~ this is a maturation development process, where his emotional sensibilities are catching up with and thereby balancing out his physical and mental sensibilities.

Sometimes it takes teenagers quite a few brushes or wrestles with the law before the aggression and violence reach the habitual extinction stage, or alternative measures are employed ~ i.e. safe outlets for the hypertension. Consider deep, gentle and even pelvic breathing as if to gently suck the soles of the feet to the floor ~ as in keeping with my previous post, and sporting activities to burn stress off before it becomes aggression or violence ~ such as going for a walk, a run; a push-bike ride, or getting a punch bag of some sort.

paulponty said:

Thing is this week hes forgotten about it. Hes back to his old ways. No effort to do anything at all and still playing up. Its almost as if the potential risk of having the police called, maybe being arrested is not even entering into his thoughts at all? Surely most people would be mortified that they might be arrested, it would worry them and they'd make sure it didn't happen? Is the Aspergers makign him like this?

Well, hopefully it is obvious now that your sons Aspergic traits play a fundamental role in all that you have described, but also supporting, threatening and violating behaviour roles will have been learnt by being emotionally, mentally and physically bullied by others, such as is quite commonly taught at most primary and secondary schools by teachers and pupils ~ to less or more inclusive extents and to varying percentile degrees (which can be useful to know).

Another factor perhaps is that in some cases of Asperger’s Syndrome, there is no short term memory but only the long term variant, so there is no immediate recall to begin with, but once the memories are fully logged and addressed, they can stay that way. So by analogy people with short term memories ~ are like people who drive automatically geared postal vans over short distances, and people with long term memories ~ are like people who drive manually greared postal trucks over long distances ~ with the memories being posted information.

In my case I also have no sense of time passing unless I am looking at a time piece, which is a condition called Temporal Aphasia, meaning I am out of phase with time ~ or life has so far been for me nearly a five decade long moment. 

paulponty said:

We did take his PC/phone away. It was more of a way to try and focus him a little to spend time thinking about things and realise how things needed to change. If he had his PC we know there is no chance of anything else.

Considering his ‘one-track’ mind-body relationship as being like a direct train from say London to Glasgow, and helping him to learn as if like a train driver to stop at a station and rest up for twenty minutes, and then once established as part of the routine ~ discuss adding a new carriage or activity sort of thing ~ on the basis as many find that obstructing people with autism is not as safe as redirecting them, as is another tried and tested methodology.

paulponty said:

So this week hes found his mobile phone and sneeked it out and got caught. I did tell him his behaviour was unacceptable and it almost kicked off again - I had no choice but to let it go. Last night then we caught him on his PC at 1am when he knows hes not supposed to be!

Totally classic and fundamentally normal childhood behaviour ~ perhaps at very least silently congratulate your son and yourself, as it did not kick off again. He is learning not only what results in what bit by bit, and what you think is reasonable behaviour along with it, which stead's him well for the future, but also he is learning what responsible behaviour is as such too.

paulponty said:

Yet hes constantly asking to have his PC back. I just don;t get how he seems to not even appreciate when things are not right. Does he really think that going behind our back is going to go unnoticed?

His is as such learning what not to do as an emotionally immature preadolescent, using ‘pester power, or in other words ~ ‘boundary testing’. This is perfectly normal maturation development, late of course for most people, but autistically or “aspergenically” happening ~ none the less. And keep in mind that your son has more or less no idea of what other people think as he thinks ‘self-centrically’ ~ not ‘socio-centrically’ which involves having an innate sense of what others think, or in other words he has no ‘Theory of Mind’ (as being ~ ‘the ability to attribute mental states—beliefs, intents, desires, emotions, knowledge, etc.—to oneself, and to others, and to understand that others have beliefs, desires, intentions. ~ Wikipedia)

paulponty said:

Not so much punishment as realising that things need to change.

Make sure that changes are discussed with him calmly and progressively on a show and tell basis in real time, with real actions, using real objects and actual locations.

If the required behavioural action and object relationships cannot be observed, discussed and experimented with ~ there and then ~ it may take much longer for the habitual behaviour to be incorporated into his behavioural routine structure.

It can take three to four months for changes to take hold, and it is really useful keeping the changes at the micro-adjustment level, little by little, bit by bit, as this more avoids articulated lorry like jackknifings and train like derailings involving the police and so fourth.

paulponty said:

IS this Aspergers behaviour?

Well it seems like it, from what you have described, but I may be wrong ~ as I always reserve the right to be wrong ;-)

If any of that helps?

Weird last night. He went to toilet and had shower in 20 minutes.

Asked him what was different this time - was it because he didn't feel strressed and why sometimes it took an hour or more. His answer? Nah dunno I just tried to be quicker.

Perhaps the sheets he is filling in is allowing him to focus a bit more on the time taken. Good news.

As others have said, maybe the OCD is now fading away and its become more of a habit. Fingers crossed.

Wise words, Cassandro.

I nagged my teenage AS son, now 22, to come off his computer games when I thought he should be studying or getting some fresh air and exercise, whilst his dad spent/spends 14+ hours a day in the next room in front of a screen working - programming (maybe?). You can see the contradiction here and a value judgement from me about my son’s poor computer usage 'playing' vs my husband’s 'work'.

Anyway, I hadn’t appreciated how much my son was learning during that screen time - about physics, history, philosophy, chess and all sorts of things. He didn’t really communicate about what he was doing. He didn’t always play games, as I’d assumed, he had a world class library at his finger tips, after all! He tells me anyone under 35 doesn’t watch TV, they watch YouTube.

Can you share any of your son’s online interests (or any other interest) to make a more positive connection?  If not, maybe he just needs that time, alone, online.  A lot of working out is going on in the teenage brain.

I am very saddened to hear about the violence, for all of you.  Would you feel confortable to talk to anyone at his school about this? School might be able to help or assist with access to services, if necessary.

There’s lots more I want to say but believe it or not it has taken me more than an hour of screen time to read through problem, answers and edit my stream of consciousness into this reply….

No not at all. It might have to begin with. But now its sort of accepted as more of an inconvenience to him.

Stimming?

Yes I see what you mean. We've tried to explain things, small steps, give him time but he is not interested at all in anything else.

If you say 'his OCD doesnt stress him', then it's probably not OCD. It's more probably stimming or special interests related to autism.  The strength of the special interests may not seem rational.

I'm not a parent, but some thoughts anyway. Offering PC time as a reward might work, but really trying to get him to do what you want may be counterproductive.  He may come around to doing what you want eventually, and he may learn to cope with distress without his usual coping mechanisms. Or not. I hope you can find a way to 'de-escalate' the violence - with autistic people, even more than with others, this involves less stimulation and a period of peace and calm and doing what he wants.

I'd just try to find something of common interest so you can communicate. There may be a lot of listening involved before he will listen to you. I presume you want him to start doing things for himself, but he may be scared of what that means, unless you can explain the need in detail and express it as a small, simple positive request, and then allow time.

One thing I just don't understand is his total lack of seeing consequences. In all honesty, all he sees is his PC - nothing else matters. Even his OCD doesnt stress him - he treats it as more of an inconveniece that takes him away from his PC. Which I guess is why hes not interested in taking time to do things the counsellor asks - its more time away from PC, easier to just continue as is? Dunno.

One thing I don't understand. Last week we almost called the police. He knows this and he knows how serious it was. He was VERY upset afterwards.

Thing is this week hes forgotten about it. Hes back to his old ways. No effort to do anything at all and still playing up. Its almost as if the potential risk of having the police called, maybe being arrested is not even entering into his thoughts at all? Surely most people would be mortified that they might be arrested, it would worry them and they'd make sure it didn't happen? Is the Aspergers makign him like this?

We did take his PC/phone away. It was more of a way to try and focus him a little to spend time thinking about things and realise how things needed to change. If he had his PC we know there is no chance of anything else.

So this week hes found his mobile phone and sneeked it out and got caught. I did tell him his behaviour was unacceptable and it almost kicked off again - I had no choice but to let it go. Last night then we caught him on his PC at 1am when he knows hes not supposed to be!

Yet hes constantly asking to have his PC back. I just don;t get how he seems to not even appreciate when things are not right. Does he really think that going behind our back is going to go unnoticed?

Not so much punishment as realising that things need to change.

IS this Aspergers behaviour?

Is there any way you could take your daughter off for a break from things too? Perhaps some sort of respite care for your son or could he stay with a relative for a while? It sounds like you could all do with a break, however that's able to be arranged. See if CAHMS have any suggestions tomorrow, maybe? Let us know how you get on with them either way.   

Thanks Endy - its getting tough on everyone in the family. Our 4 year old daughter burst into tears the other day because of all thats been going on.

CAMHS do seem to get 'mixed' reviews on this forum but I have no personal experience of dealing with them. It sounds as if you're banging your head against a brick wall with the whole situation and instead of getting the answers and support you need, just getting more and more frustrated and (understandably) angry. 

I've been in situations where I've been the one expected to carry everything, co-ordinate everyone, and make things happen somehow. It sounds as if you're used to being that person and I know what it felt like for me when it just wasn't WORKING!! 

Don't forget that you need to take care of yourself too. To be able to keep doing what you're doing, you really do need to give yourself a bit of an MOT now and again, TLC, whatever you want to call it. Whatever it is that you do, go fishing alone or take your son or daughter camping, take your wife out dancing or finish knitting that scarf (joking!), give yourself a break. It'll all still be there when you get back but at least you'll feel a little lighter, fresher, calmer to start all over again. It's worth a thought. You're worth a thought!    

Thanks for the kinds words Endy - I just don't know what to do. Riding it out is unlikely to work I'm afraid due to the escalating situation.

Im hoping to speak to CAMHS on tuesday urgently to see if something can be done but past experience has shown they'll do nothing.

Well I can't think of any other strategies either I'm afraid. Time? Just ride it out and hope for the best? I don't think I could do it but maybe you're a more patient person than I am. I guess everyone grows up eventually though so maybe he'll outgrow this too. Prayer etc? I can't see how these help but they seem to work for some people. All I can say is that I hope things, somehow, do work out.   

I know what you're saying.

It might be necessary but past experience has shown that NOTHING sinks in when it comes to meaning business. It all goes in one year and out the other.

Can almost guarantee that having a night in the cells would make not a jot of difference to him. His attitude would  be "its so unfair/woe is me" etc.

Since it happened last week, we've removed his privileges and calmly sat him down, explained that things have to change, we'd like him to listen to his counsellor, try and do what shes suggesting, come and speak to us, I've even bought him a book for teens on aspergers.

Guess what - he has done NOTHING! Despite a few gentle hints. Hes been well behaved but now hes asking for his PC. Hes got more chance of flying to the moon!

Not because I want to punish him further but when hes not got his PC to distract he STILL does not make any effort. EVERYTHING else goes out the window when hes got his PC.

Hi NAS35349

This sounds like a difficult and distressing situation for your family.

You may like to contact our Parent to Parent service who offer support to parents and carers of children or adults with autism. This service is confidential and run by trained parent volunteers who are all parents themselves of a child or adult with autism.  They might have some strategies or ideas you could try?

You contact the team on 0808 800 4106. Please leave a message and the team will call you back as soon as possible at a time that suits you, including evenings and weekends. Alternatively you can use contact the team via web form: http://www.autism.org.uk/services/community/family-support/parent-to-parent/enquiry.aspx

or

You may like to contact our Autism Helpline team who can provide you with information and advice. You can contact the team via telephone on 0808 800 4104 (Monday to Thursday 10am to 4pm, Friday 9am to 3pm). Please note that the Helpline does experience a high volume of calls and it may take a couple of attempts before you can get through to speak to an advisor. Alternatively, should you prefer to send a message, you can do so via their webform: https://www.autism.org.uk/services/helplines/main/questions.aspx

Hope this helps,

Nicky-Mod

Sorry, my short post above isn't because I think that's an easy answer, or that there is an easy answer to this at all, but because I really can't see another option at this stage. 

I  know that no parent wants to take the step of involving the police to deal with their own child. On the other hand, no parent wants to be rushing to A+E or calling 999 for their 4-yr old daughter (or for their wife) because their son has finally stepped WAY over 'that' line. 

Would it make things better? Well it would show him that you mean what you say, that there really IS a line somewhere. It would signal to him that when you say you've tried everything you can think of, you really have been forced to take the last resort. It would tell him that there are other people out there (the police and courts) who can and will force much tougher sanctions upon him if he is unwilling to work with and respect his own family's rules and boundaries. 

Would it make things worse? The only way (that I can see) that things could get worse at this point would be if those marks and cuts and bruises on your face were on your wife or daughter's face instead ... and that might happen if you don't call the police too. 

Thanks - worth a try

Know what you mean and I thought about it yesterday. BUT, several reasons:-

1) I don't really trust CAMHS. They're only saying "call the police" because they dont want to deal with it.

2) I'm pretty sure, even if I could get the police to take action, they are going to have no idea at all how to proceed.

3) Would it help or make things worse? A night in the cells for a young boy with "issues". It might give him the needed short sharp shock or it might make it worse.

I'm just so upset today that hes done it. My own child assaulting me. Looking in the mirror this morning and there are marks on my face where hes punched me and hit me with a water bottle.

Thing is I try to tell myself its his illness but its hard when hes made ZERO effort to listen to anyone, help himsellf etc. In a years hes changed not a jot. He forgets to take his meds, he doesnt try what the counsellor says. All because he just can not be bothered and would ratehr just play computer games all day long.

Copied from NAS behaviour pages - Meet up with other carers, or get support from, a local National Autistic Society branch or group, community service or family support service in your area. Other local support groups and services are listed in our Autism Services Directory.