Invalidated insurance

Thank you for the Betari reference - This is a useful model.

I have not heard of this, but there are different cases. It is best to talk about it with people who understand the laws, such as lawyers or even doctors. And in general, everything about insurance is something I try to avoid because I don't trust insurance companies right now. The only insurance I have recently made is life insurance so that in the event of my death, my son, who has autism, and my wife will receive money for me. If anyone does not know how it all works, I advise you to read this article lifeinsuranceblog.net. I think it will be interesting to many.

welcome to this Forum

Well, in general, there are many factors that affect the validity of insurance, but, of course, some insurance companies often try to cancel insurance dishonestly. A good friend of mine had a similar situation. He paid for the insurance, I think it was Gulfway. But I'm not sure. In any case, he turned out to have a hidden form of autism, usually it is barely noticeable in a person. And it was revealed only recently. So, his insurance company simply deceived him and when he got into an accident, he had to borrow a lot of money to pay for medical services. I believe that it is best to use the services of well-known insurance companies and not save on health. I personally use American National, which I found on http://lifeinsuranceblog.net. Be healthy, brother

hi welcome to this Forum

You have posted in an old discussion

but feel free to join in anywhere

I don't think it's possible to cancel the insurance if you didn't know about your diagnosis

What happened to you?

While obviously everybody's situation is different (so ask a medical professional about your personal position) I did, when diagnosed with Aspergers, ask whether I needed to inform the DVLA. The response was a very surprised, "No."

The official guidance is absolutely bloody useless: https://www.gov.uk/asperger-and-driving and https://www.gov.uk/asd-and-driving

So ask your doctor.

Arran said:

Should insurance companies even be allowed to ask customers if they have ASD and increase premiums as a result without any prior consultation of the NAS or other sufficiently knowledgeable individuals?

Simply put, NO.  If anyone finds that this is the case, then usually a quick note to the insurance company reminding them of their obligations under The Equalities Act 2010 usually reminds them that they are being "naughty" and the issue resolves itself (at least in my experience).

If you do not get any joy, then refer the matter to the insurance ombudsman stating very clearly that your ASD had absolutely no relevance to the claim - in the case of motor insurance, the only question that the insurance company is allow to ask is "do you have any medical conditions that are reportable to the DVLA?"  As long as you can answer "NO" then they are no allowed to ask anything further either at the time of the quote or the time of a claim (as long as it really has not had any impact on your driving or the cause of the claim).

Insurance is a subject that the NAS needs to look into and, where necessary, challenge insurance companies and the ABI.

Could car insurance be invalidated by carrying children as passengers with ASD even if the driver does not have ASD? Insurance companies could argue that children with ASD are more likely to misbehave and distract drivers so this should be reflected in the premium.

Travel insurance is another problematic area especially if it's included in a package and the customer isn't asked about certain medical conditions by the seller of the package. I have even received a rumour that the travel insurance provided by a school for a residential trip did not automatically cover children with ASD and the school did not pass the information on to parents in order to arrange alternative insurance if necessary.

Insurance companies are not known for their honesty or their clarity, and they have a passion for trying to avoid having to pay out following a claim.

The central plank of this discussion are instances where an insurance policy has been invalidated because the person did not declare ASD even though ASD had nothing to do with the nature of the claim. For example, the cost of a stay at a hotel because a plane was cancelled or damage to the roof of a house by a storm.

Should insurance companies even be allowed to ask customers if they have ASD and increase premiums as a result without any prior consultation of the NAS or other sufficiently knowledgeable individuals? Actuaries are able to cross-correlate almost any variable they like but should there be a limit to what factors they can take into account? Recent research has revealed that a persons name affects how much they pay!

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/01/higher-insurance-if-you-re-called-mohammed-s-just-start-institutionalised

https://mend.org.uk/news/car-insurance-expensive-mohammed-john/

5pillarsuk.com/.../

This is somewhat misleading information. The question of reasonable behaviour maybe a subjective or objective one based on the particulars of the offence in question. Reasonable behaviour is not judged by the Police it is a question considered by the court during prosecution. The majority of driving offences are ones of strict liability and therefore you always commit them and have only a defence to the offence.

Vehicle insurance is one of those strict liability offences, you either have it or you don't. There is one statutory defences that relates to employment. However even with the available defence in place the defendant still commits the offence they would just be discharged from court.

There is no question of reasonable behaviour in the obtaining of insurance, you must always disclose what the insurance firm specify you should within the terms and conditions. 

Should your insurance policy subsequently become invalidated due to a failure to disclose you would not commit the offence of failing to drive without third party insurance as you had 3rd party insurance at the material time the car was used, instead you may commit an offence of fraud in relation to the obtaining of the policy. Again there is no question of reasonable behaviour, you were either dishonest for gain or not, dishonesty is not defined in law but is considered in the case law R V Ghosh. R v Ghosh raises the question of what may be deemed dishonest to the standards of reasonable and ordinary people and Wether her the defendant knew what he was doing was dishonest against those standards making the question of dishonesty an objective one. Therefore should someone fail to disclose at the time of obtaining insurance a condition that would invalidate the policy as sold they would be judged by the court against the standard of an ordinary person making it quite clear the act would be dishonest.

If in doubt disclose 

You only have to tell DVLA IF a condition or illness affects your ability to drive, for example eye conditions that affect your sight or maybe a heart condition or epilepsy etc that may result in sudden loss of control or consciousness. Should your ASD result in a sudden loss of control, affect your spacial awareness, speed and or distance judgment, maybe coordination or any other aspect that makes your being in control of a vehicle a risk I suspect you should inform them. 

In terms of insurance there is no forum answer, you should read each policies individual terms and conditions once purchased or schedule prior to purchase. 

On the more general subject of ASD and insurance, it is first necessary to discuss what is, or could be, meant by Autism affecting your driving.  For example, you are adversely affected by noise and crowding due to your ASD.  In this case, whilst you are probably perfectly fine pootling around the back roads, if you were to be stuck on a busy motorway or in town during rush hour, then your ASD could trigger anxiety which, in turn, could lead to you making irrational decisions whilst in control of a motor vehicle.

One thing that we all have to remember is that the onus is on us as individuals to be aware of our "condition(s)" and decide whether they should be reported to the DVLA/insurance companies.  However, in road traffic law, there is often the phrase "reasonably expected" attached to just about every action/outcome of an action - inaction is considered an action - and should push come to shove, the desk sergeant in your local roads policing unit will only consider 2 documents in deciding of your actions were "reasonable" - the highway code and Roadcraft: The Police Driving Manual (or Riding Manual in the case of motorbikes etc).

Where this is important is that could you have "reasonably expected" getting stuck in rush hour traffic in the middle of London to trigger the anxiety aspect of your ASD along with the resulting outcome of violence/aggression forming the basis of "road rage", or the damage to other vehicles in your mad dash to remove yourself from this overwhelming situation?  If it is decided either by the police, the DVLA, your insurance company or an "expert witness" (doctor etc) that you could have "reasonably expected" such an outcome, you will find yourself in a lot more trouble than any possible sanctions/restrictions imposed by the DVLA on your licence.  The most common of which is a medical declaration every 3 years to verify that you are still fit to drive.

Now, as you can probably see from the above example, your fitness to drive by only be temporarily impaired.  It is therefore your responsibility to make sure that you are aware of possible outcomes on your, your ASD, your drive etc.

If you were to complete an Advanced driving/riding course through either RoSPA or IAMRoadSmart (http://www.iamroadsmart.com) you will be introduced to a number of "tools" to help you assess your fitness to drive.  For example:

I AM SAFE

I - Infection (are you physically well or are you running a fever, have a cold or anything else that could distract you?)

A - Alcohol (have you had any in the past 8 hours, for example?)

M - Medication (do you take any medication - prescription or otherwise - that could affect your risk assessments/levels of concentration etc?)

S - Sleep (are you feeling alert?  Did you get enough sleep last night? etc)

A - Attitude (how you wound up and like to be tearing off as though you are on a drag strip? etc)

F - Food (when did you last eat?  Even non-diabetics are affected by low blood sugars)

E -Emotions (are you feeling calm or have you just had a blazing row with your wife/husband/parent/sibling/child etc?)

HUMAN FACTORS

Primarily broken down into 4 key areas:

1. You. This incorporates I AM SAFE (above) as well as other aspects, Betari's Circle of Conflict/Betari's Square*), for example.

2. Your Vehicle.  Is it mechanically sound?  Have you completed the necessary pre-ride/drive checks?  Cockpit drill etc?

3. Your Journey.  What is the purpose of the journey? You are likely to approach a trip to the nearest newsagent for a bar of chocolate in a very different way than if you were rushing to the hospital because your child had been rushed in with a head injury, for example.

4. The Wider World.  Basically, everything else (traffic, road conditions, time of day, weather, road works, other road users etc etc etc)

As I hope you can see, with these "tools" in hand, you can fairly quickly decide if you are, or are not, currently fit to drive/ride.

I hope this helps...

*Betari's Circle of conflict: Your attitude affects Your behaviour which affects Their attitude which affects Their behaviour which affects Your attitude etc etc

Not necessary to, Arran.  For example, I have type 2 diabetes.  The DVLA state that, unless I am insulin dependent (I'm not), I do not have to tell them about the diabetes.  That said, there is also a situation where you may become hypo-unaware, in which case, you are obliged to tell DVLA about the diabetes.  By the same virtue, when you get a quote for insurance - whether online, over the 'phone or face-to-face, there is always the question about any health/medical conditions that are DVLA reportable.  If you say no, and it turns out that you should have reported to DVLA, your insurance company may decide not to cover you - especially if you are involved in an accident.

Remember: ignorance is no defence in law

No, not at all.

I'm concerned about sneaky backhanded behaviour from insurance companies - like avoiding a policy because the policyholder had a fine for dropping litter from the local magistrates court.

Arran, have you had an accident?

I passed my test 33 years ago and was diagnosed this year So I consider on balance that my autism does not have an effect on my driving.

Trainspotter said:

All insurance works on the basis that if you do not declare any condition you may invalidate your insurance, even if it is not mentioned in the list of conditions.

That is untrue. If they don't ask then they don't have a right to know.

One could always argue that if you pass a driving test then ASD does not affect your driving.

I would imagine that travel insurance would be affected if your condition may make you so unwell that you would be unfit to travel.  So If your social anxiety meant you were unable to travel, and you had booked a holiday in the outback of Australia, your insurance would probably be invalid. 

Likewise for frequent bouts of depression or anxiety which made you feel so bad you would not step out the door.  But these conditions are like Autism, just because you are depressed does not mean you would not look forward to a holiday. 

Just bear in mind that declaring your  autism may attach conditions to the insurance when they may not pay out, and not declaring it and a claim leads to medical investigation which may invalidate due to non-declaration.

House insurance could be affected if you are for example dyspraxic with your autism, and frequently have 'accidents' and fall over which may damage your belongings, or that you are forgetful so you don't know whether you locked the door or not, or have meltdowns which involve damaging property.  I am sure there are other instances.

All insurance works on the basis that if you do not declare any condition you may invalidate your insurance, even if it is not mentioned in the list of conditions.  There may be a list of conditions with a qualifier such as 'this is not a comprehensive list and if in doubt you should declare a condition you have which causes x, y, or z'.

But while not encouraging anyone to make fraudulent claims, or withold information, unless your condition was  obvious, you would have to use as a reason for the loss that you were autistic, depressive, suffer from social anxiety, etc for the insurance company to be aware of anything.  Of course if it was life insurance or a claim involved your health, your GP would be asked for your medical notes for which you could refuse permission.  But refusing would also invalidate the claim.