Vicious cycle- how to motivate yourself when you feel like you have nothing left to fight for

I miss most someone with a head for strategies, my old buddies moved away. All kinds of turn-based strategy board games or single player PC games like Warhammer Battle, Battle Brothers, Urtuk: The Desolation, Battletech. It used to be my way to socialise, meet guys playing games like that and talk about games without end, and speculate over various exploits. Loong loong time ago my eldest sister was a buddy like that, but then she got married and turned into 24/7 stay-at-home full time mom. But she is happy so I'm not trying to drag her away back to old habits.

I joke sometimes I could use a Sunday afternoon tea with Napoleon in his tent discussing strategies. 

At OU I started BSc Math, something that will not require much from me, and I won't learn anything new probably until 3rd semester. Until then it will be only familiarising myself with terminology in english.

My limit to go without purpose is 5 weeks, and I loose it.

I have a telescope and no place to place it, so I could leave tripod standing there, it takes an hour to position it correctly, so repeating the process everytime is just annoying

Hi! I'm so glad to hear that you have been able to start at OU and that that has been positive!! I took a few modules with them when I was still at school and it was great! What subject are you studying?  I can relate to what you are saying. With no purpose/ goal and also no energy, I also sink into this absolute hopeless and comatose, but still super anxious state... It's so hard to balance too because I do think, that for short periods of time it would probably be quite healing to be ok with not having 'a purpose' and just allowing yourself to relax (I struggle with feeling like I constantly need to be productive in some way), but then I think at some point comes the time, at least for me, where I need something to drag me out of my purposeless, depressed and stuck existence and to give me some motivation and the will to keep going again. 

What hobbies do you have? 

Thanks so much for your support :) We can do it. 

Thank you so much. What you say is very true. I don't have much to loose if I go for it. If I do accept, I won't go in with that mindset though. I will do my very best to put everything on my side so that it can be a success. 

Hi, I can relate to so much of what you are saying. Sorry that it took me so long to reply, I've been going back and worth in my mind, having panic attacks about everything and I was trying to shut it all out for a bit with not much success. 

It sounds like you had so many stress factors whilst you were doing your PhD and very little support. It's sad that they gave you such bad advice regarding taking a break. I actually took a break during my undergraduate, but that was handled quite badly too at the time... I hadn't really wanted to stop at the time and felt pressured into it and the process of actually getting it approved caused more stress than anything else... but I do think that they are becoming better and better at dealing with people intermitting now. 

I just want to say that I don't think 50 is too late to start something new, if you wanted to!- my Mum, actually did a 1 year course at university at age 55 and has now found a job which she likes, giving languages classes for adults online. It makes me so happy when I that she has found a job which she feels good about. What topic would you want to do your MA on? 

In terms of my decision, I ruled out one of the PhD options a few days ago, then spent the past days agonising whether I should accept the other offer or not take any of them at all but I am almost decided that I will give that PhD my best shot: There are a lot of positives about it: good supervisors, lovely people, good environment etc. I do still have lots of doubts and fears and nothing feels 'right' at moment but I will go with this and I will focus on doing everything I can to make it work. This in itself is also scary as it means facing and dealing with some of my issues ... I will probably quit my job now or very soon, which will give me some time. I also really need to somehow deal with my issues around food and at least put on a bit of weight before starting ... and the stress/anxiety management needs A LOT of work... 

Thank you so much for all your help. It was very helpful to be able to talk about it. I hope things will workout... and if not, then I'll take it one step at a time and deal with it. It's so hard to know. I have been 100% convinced by options in the past and they turned out disasterous, and on the other hand some of my best experiences were actually when I went in not being convinced at all. So it's super hard to predict anyways. I hope things work out. Now I need to pull myself together and actually make it happen. The past days I was so anxious about deciding that I didn't even try to sleep and just stayed up distracting/numbing myself to try and stop my thoughts... 

Thanks a lot for the advice on bikes and trikes- I will look into that. Once I have put on a bit of weight I think I should really make myself put recovering from the injuries and getting back in shape a priority as it would make such a difference if I could get back outdoors and have a hobby again. 

Seems to me you have answered most of your question yourself , you are struggling with the stress of change and decision making , All the other stuff comes from this , reading your answers ,you know the phd you want ,make the decision . trust yourself [To be offered a phd is an amazing  thing,you may not feel it but you are amazing ]. Then give yourself a rest and do something relaxing for a couple of days .daydream, watch a film ,cook  something nice ,go visit a waterfall, sleep in late . Then you will find all the other stuff is a bit more manageable. We all go through this at times and being autistic makes it so intense, being able to look at yourself and understand  the reason and that it is a PASSING THING ,has helped me .

I was like that since September to January. It started with failing to get on daily studies, because of no referral, the fault wasn't mine, but systems, college teachers I had no longer thaught at college, and college didn't want to give me contact to them. It felt like the last thing I can do, since everything else failed previously. I was just hanging there. No purpose, no hope. I felt like zombie vegetable on life support. How long one can go like that? But I broke the cycle, starting OU from February, they did not need referrals. My motivation to continue returned about the same time.

Maybe it was just break from pushing myself constantly? But how to live without purpose?

New hobbies are not easy to start in adulthood. It annoys me as well.

Most of my old hobbies would be more entertaining if I had anybody around to talk about them, doing them solo isn't as much fun.

Don't dissapear. Hang in there. Solution will come sooner or later.

If you don't take the best PHD offer, you won't be able to change your mind later, but if you can take it on, you can always quit later. 

You are in my friends group, by all means feel free to talk these things through in a P.M.

I may think of something you haven't, or give you a useful perspective... You can at least be totally honest...

But I know about that "I don't seem to care anymore about the things I used love", I'm grappling with some of that myself.

Just wanted to second this comment 100%!

Any option would be better than to starve and die! No need to apologise for being negative, it's how you are feeling right now. But it is not how you will always feel, even if it feels like it will be. Feelings are deceptive! Don't give up hope. Each time you get something wrong, you can learn from it, that didn't work, maybe the next thing will work. Scientific method! Some experiments give a negative result, but that can still be useful. And eventually you might find the best way. One thing in your favour, you know you are an autist and that NT solutions won't work for you, so you can scrap those. Hopefully you can learn from some of the experiences of us older ones, whether we found the right way or not. Being on this forum and asking for help is positive.

Have you mentioned your autism and burnout to either of the PhD options? Better to discuss it with them than to decide against them without even seeing if they would be able to help. What you describe of how you feel about it makes so much sense to me. It reminds me of how I felt when I had burnout and had to give up my PhD, and then how I have had no real confidence since. I tried to start being a crochet designer but bottled out of it because I decided i couldn't deal with the admin side. I wondered about doing another MA but they are so expensive and what if I can't cope with that level of work any more? And now I am 50 which is neither too old to have no future nor really young enough to feel I have enough time! Plus my arthritis and horribly poor energy levels leave me feeling I will just get worse not better, even though I did manage to turn things around from a few years ago and actually am now doing a lot better than I was then, with my trike and language learning. But you really are young enough to be able to turn it around!

Through my adult life I had to have a few years break between things. I always put that down to just the arthritis, but now i realise it was the autism as well. Ideally you would take a year or three to fully recover and then do your PhD. But I think science is a bit more competitive than Medieval Studies! How soon after agreeing to either would you have to start? Would they start at the beginning of the academic year? That would at least give you quite a few months off which might be enough to turn things around. I think you must be close to accepting that you have to give up your job though.

I think you have two basic options. One would be to drop everything and focus on getting your physical health back, deciding to take 2 or 3 years to do that as your primary focus. The other would be to tell your PhD options all about your health challenges and if either of them agree to help you and they don't start for a few months, then work towards that as a goal. This second option would still involve dropping your job and focusing on improving your health as well as preparing mentally to begin the PhD. But the risk is you still might not be ready when it does start.

A PhD is all consuming, as I'm sure you know. I did mine part time and it still chewed me up and spat me out! Although to be fair half the problem was that I had too much else going on at the time. I had just got married, and had some hobbies I didn't give up, and then my mother in law developed a long-term health crisis which was very stressful, and my cat got sick and had to be put down. No wonder I burnt out looking back! And I was wrongly advised, I should have taken a break sooner, but I wasn't told that was an option. But it turned out I could actually take as much as a year off! Which is what I did, but it was just too late by then, but it might have been enough if I had done it 3 months earlier.

As for the physical issues - I was hypermobile, which does make one more prone to arthritis, so I understand. Is it the ankle and knee on the same side, or one on each? Have you seen anyone about orthotics and splints? There are things which can support the weak joint, probably better things than when I was your age. I can't help feeling if they can make such great limb replacements they ought to be able to make decent supports! Maybe I should look into that for me too? Regarding your bike, look into shorter cranks and an oval chain ring which I found helped my knees. I don't know how tall you are or how long your legs are, but most bikes have cranks designed for tall people with long legs and many people find they do better with shorter cranks, particularly affecting the knees. I think you know that you will have to build up slowly, increase your calorie intake, especially protein to build muscle, and gradually increase the exercise, making sure you recover properly as well. You also know having a goal is the best motivation, whether that goal is to get well enough to do your PhD or to try a new outdoor sport like climbing, or to get a trike and cycle the Pennine Bridleway! (I would love to do the latter, but logistics is too hard for me!) Do you live anywhere near good outdoor areas? I think someone suggested just going somewhere lovely and sitting or wandering gently about can be uplifting. Wrapped up warm of course at this time of year!

Please don’t disappear! You add value to the forum!

It sounds like you may have some depression and/or anhedonia (inability to feel pleasure) as part of your burnout. That’s what happened to me.

I don’t have much to add that previous commenters haven’t said already. It sounds like you are doing a lot to keep going and find help. Please give yourself credit for that. I do think you need to focus your energies on day-to-day survival at the moment. Maybe make small daily and weekly goals to motivate yourself?

Academia with burnout is tough (I’ve been there). No one can decide for you what you want to do, but can you get more time to decide? Would you consider writing to the programmes to explain the situation and ask for more time?

Please take care of yourself! Is there anything you still enjoy, however small, that you can use to re-energise right now?

We do have to do it ourselves. Not because people don't care, but because it's the only way. Yet we don't have to do it alone.

I am so glad you are feeling more positive. You are strong. I like what you say about "Your struggles are valid but they are not what defines you". 

I can relate to school being awful... it was for me too. 

I think for me there is a lot of guilt- and somehow that also doesn't help... and struggling sometimes feels like it 'gives an excuse' to fail... I know this thinking is wrong in so many ways but it's there. For me I think sometimes I just want to be rescued, I'm craving that someone will take care of things as I feel so utterly incapable of coping in this world. But sadly noone can rescue me. I have to do it myself. I can get support yes but I think in the end it has to come from me... 

I hope tomorrow will be another more positive day for you!! 

"There's nothing neither good nor bad, that thinking makes it so." My favourite Shakespeare quote.

We can certainly convince ourselves of one thing, backed up with rationality, then completely flip our thinking in a way that also makes sense.

What you said about being scared was a light bulb moment for me. School was awful, and I had my ways of coping which are not suited to the adult world. I've never liked myself either, because I'm different. And it's scary to think of not having struggles or fears, as in some ways they become your armour. Also if you don't like what is your core self, there is no excuses left. It's all projected fear, yet fear feels real.

I can say this to you, but accepting it myself is another story.

Today I realised that I have to accept my diagnosis first. 

I am autistic. 

That's the second time I've ever typed it, and I've never said it out loud, even to myself.

I know I hide behind fears and struggles, I've known nothing else, and the unknown is scary.

Please don't be hard on yourself. You are doing your best at each given moment, and that is amazing. 

Today I'm feeling a little more positive. My heart is thumping and my face is in pain, but I'm trying. Tomorrow may be a different story, and my inner demons catch up. I'm sure I will have more days ahead where I want to end things.

Your struggles are valid, but they are not what defines you. 

Hi, thanks- I thought I had already replied to you but I just saw that it didn't send. I can relate to this very much. I also think that I have become very used to struggling and I find change hard even at the best of times and part of me doesn't really want to get better. Like you say there is some comfort/familiarity in struggling so much even though it is so hard to bear. I've been trying to understand what is holding me back from committing to pull myself up and try and make things work. I think I'm scared. I feel like I have nothing worth fighting for. I don't know who I am if I am not struggling... I also think that I'll then have to deal with some uncomfortable memories and things that happened... And part of me feels like I don't deserve it. And I don't even remember ever being fine. Things were hard at school too and it's been so long that I have been struggling with things I don't even remember what it is like to feel ok. I need to find back some motivation because otherwise I don't stand a chance of things ever working out. 

I'm so happy that you managed to let yourself do what you like. I believe in you. 

I think it's very good advice to try and sit with the emotions. I've realised that with decisions I can usually rationalise any option but what I actually want just gets lost in all the thinking and pros and cons and it just gets super confusing and overwhelming... 

Thanks so much for your support. 

Hi- thanks. I’m so glad that you found the trike as a way to still enjoy the outdoors!

I have issues with posterior tibial tendonitis in my ankle and issues with my knee (possibly due to hypermobile joints)- I initially got the tendonitis when I was very fit and also at a good weight- I rested and followed my doctor’s advice but I just ended up doing less and less and my tendon could take less and less. I then lost a lot of weight and all remaining muscle. I did regain the weight a few times since but every time I try to slowly become more active again, it would set off the ankle or knee issue again. I started physiotherapy a few times but I moved country too much ... and now I am so underweight physiotherapy has little point. At moment I can walk 45-60 min on the flat and I can do some light cycling. I should be grateful I can do that but I feel stuck as I need to always be careful how I get places and make sure I don’t go over. Plus I have become compulsive about the movement I can do... It is easier to bear while I am underweight and have no energy but of course there is no hope of it improving whilst I am underweight....

in terms of decisions with PhDs, sadly I have very little time to decide. One of the programs I have to decide in next 1-2 weeks - then the other option which I think is probably a better option (tugh i still have a lot of doubts), i will probably have to decide next week as soon as official letter comes- i have been in contact with these people for months now, visited them, had multiple meengs etc- so I think I will need to give an answer soon. I just don’t feel like I am in a physical or mental state to make such a huge decision at the moment- I struggle with decisions at the best otimes. But having to make the decision and the whole uncertainty about the future is stopping me from resting. I tried to shut it from my mind for a few days but it keeps sneaking its way in and mas me panick. I am scared that i might just pick something because I want things to be ok... but my job also didn’t make me happy at all and was only ever meant to be temporary whilst i looked for ahD... i’m so confused because i put all my last strength into applying and now i am so unwell and don’t feel like anything is right. I am also worried that everything was too rushed... i don’t knowIt’s basically a disaster all around. I know noone can give me an answer- it’s really hard- I feel like i need something to work towards but i am also so scared of starting something and not liking it and things getting even worse. Plus i am scared of having to get better possibly... basically i just don’t know anything anymore at all- i tried not thinking about it... that didn’t work and made me anxious. I tried making lists of pros and cons but depending on how i feel i just go all against or so. I was thinking i should start reading about the topics and see how i feel but i am terrified i will hate it and i am scared to try... and it’s hard to know as i am burntout anyways so it’s not like i have been doing any science related reading anymore anyways.... I’m sorry for rambling on- basically this kindof stuff 10000x worse and more negative and extreme is going through my head all day and night.

i’m so tired of everything that i find myself wishing i could just starve and die but I know that would take way too long and i probably wouldn’t do it because somehow i always end up muddling along. And i have had a lot of suicidal thoughts in the past but i’m still here. I do think i want things to workout but I’m at loss as to what I need to do to make that happen and I have lost hope- i feel like i tried so hard so many times and every time i just started something new and it just got worse and worse. I’m sorry i’m being so negative 

I'm sorry to hear that you're finding things so difficult at the moment.

Ann :) said:

I had such a strong wish to do a PhD but now that I have offers, I felt no pleasure when I got them

The fact that you have offers suggests that others can see the positive qualities and potential that you clearly have but are not able to see yourself at the moment. 

Ann :) said:

Having to decide what to do is giving me further agony

It is a big decision, especially now when you are trying to recover from burnout. Mental anguish over something unresolved won't be helping your recovery.

I get like that, when I know something has to change but the fear of making the wrong decision can overwhelm me.

How long do you have to decide? Can you defer that until you are thinking more rationally? 

Ann :) said:

The other thing that used to motivate me is my love for hiking and outdoor activities

Can you still get out into nature at all? Maybe try studying ordnance survey or google maps and identify a place you can get to easily by car or public transport.

Go there and just 'be'. Focus on the birdsong, the trees, the sheep, the view, anything except the mental torment inside your head.

I have some favourite places in nature that I find so therapeutic. Even when I cannot get to those places in person it can help to picture them in my mind.

Hi Ann,

The moment things went well for me I started to feel the low mood creep in. All the insecurities became overwhelming. This was 4 years ago. I do wonder if it was Burnout or depression,  but that's not relevant now.

Personally I find the low mood and things going wrong comforting in a strange way, although painful and awful, it feels more familiar. And familiar is comforting. I also find I'm scared that I have opportunities to turn what is unhappy into something hopeful. Perhaps it's the fear that I'm undeserving,  or that it will fall apart again.  It's kind if self sabotaging.

I wonder if any of this perhaps feels familiar to you?

Ann, you and others here have helped me so much. Yesterday I started to see what had been taken from me at work as an opportunity to train others, and allowing myself to do more of what I like. I'm still fighting the fears that I've misunderstood, or that the opportunity to release some pressure from me will ultimately fail. 

I tried, rather than to analyse what I wanted from what was happening, and researching what I thought I should do. Instead I sat with the emotions of it. I hope I'm making sense. I didn't allow my brain to tear it apart, instead to feel what I wanted and enjoy the hope of it.

I really hope that in some small way, something I've waffled about has given you some help.

I'm here if you want to chat, if you need a sounding board, or just a cheerleader on the sidelines shaking Pim poms for you. 

I think you feel this way because you are burnt out. I would suggest stop the job and rest and recover. When do you need to decide on the PhD offers (for which congratulations!)? Put off deciding as long as possible.

I totally understand about the hiking etc. As I have been disabled with arthritis for 30 years and used to love outdoor activities I can totally relate. There are outdoor activities disabled people can do though, so even if you are not actually disabled there must be ways you can get out and get at least some of what you need - I have found a way myself!

My trike, which I used as my name here, is awesome. It is a recumbent MTB style trike and very rugged. With it I can go out, not just on roads, but also on tracks and some mountain bike trails, which is awesome fun! Depending on what your injuries are, you may well be able to ride such a machine, and they can have electric motors added too. I have also tried disability sailing, and there is disability canoeing and other sports too, just google it!

If you don't feel like sharing exactly what your physical problems/injuries are, do please accept my friend request (which I will send you now) and send me a message. But I won't be at all offended if you prefer not to do the friend thing and keep the discussion here. Up to you. But if you can share what your exact mobility problems are then I might be able help with ideas of things you could try. Even if you are too underweight to try one right now, having an idea as a goal will motivate you to put weight on.

When I was first diagnosed with arthritis at about 20 I thought my world had ended. It is not sad or pathetic, it is totally understandable when you have a huge mountain to climb and your legs are broken! Please believe me when I say there will be a way through for you. It might feel insurmountable right now, but don't give up hope. Your future may or may not hold what you expected, but it is possible that it will turn out better than you expect.