Advice please? Potentially Autistic - Difficulties with people... and they're everywhere!

I've always been bothered by lies, but I am not always truthful myself; I may choose not tell the whole truth rather than create an entire fiction to paint me in a better light.  I'm not sure when I gained the ability to lie, and I'm not entirely comfortable with it., but I will do it to avoid causing pain to others, to avoid embarrassment (unless I know the truth needs to be told, in which case I'd tell it and accept the consequences), or to avoid giving an overly-precise answer.  Sometimes, I think I am not truthful to myself because I can't tell what I'm feeling most of the time.  When it comes to rules, my logic is that it's OK not to follow it to the letter, as long as you obey the spirit.

I've experienced the harm that both truth and lies can cause so I try to be cautious with both.  As much as I don't like to say it, a subjective truth can be just as damaging as a lie sometimes.  This is going to go on for a bit; sorry about that.

For the lies part, I'd like to discuss an incident from work.  I've been working in a small engineering company for nearly five years as an 'apprentice'.  In truth, I feel little better than a slave in this place most of the time.  The manager I worked under dropped work on me whenever he felt like, resulting in me working unpaid overtime almost every day, he didn't personally give me any training, he ordered me to do work for another company that he owned part of but I wasn't employed by and he would give vague instructions in poor quality English; for example telling me to use phrases like "poor colour of red" in a report to be sent to an overseas supplier, or telling me to design a "nicely curved" handle.  I passed him information about Asperger's Syndrome, in the hopes of smoothing things over but nothing changed. The only consolation is that I wasn't  the only person there dealing with this rubbish, just the one who dealt with it the most; at least three other people quit this job before I started, and none of them lasted over one year. 

This had been going on for a while and about three years ago on a day before I was due for a day off on Friday, when I had been working overtime again so that we could go through a report I'd written and he told me to fetch a printer from 'the office', despite him having a printer right there under his desk.  I went all over the factory trying to find 'the office' and I couldn't find this printer.  After a while, I decided that enough was enough, remembering that I wasn't legally obligated to work overtime according to ACAS; I told him that I was going and that I would see him next week and when he started talking about how he was tired of my 'attitude' I forcefully told him that I wasn't obligated to work overtime and that he didn't have the power to force me and he folded.  I should have phrased it better but I was in a bad place emotionally; my parents were going through a messy divorce, my mum developed long term health problems and had been in hospital recently, my maternal grandmother had died a few weeks ago on Christmas and I was tired and angry at having to deal with this place and having him waste my time again.

The following week I came in and partway through my day I was told to come and talk to the owner after 4pm.  The manager and I went there, and the owner claimed the material I provided about autism was interesting, yet he changed the subject when I asked what he found the most interesting.  When I pointed out that this was technically a violation of disciplinary procedure, I was told that if I wanted to turn this into one of those than that was fine (since the contract state that the owner settles disciplinary issues there wouldn't have been any point). The owner told me that the overtime and this work for their other company (he and the manager own the other business that I mentioned earlier) was part of the 'learning experience', and if I didn't like how things were done there in the office then it's fine: I could either be demoted to the factory floor or quit.  Oh, and by the way I just got a 20% pay rise, but if I chose demotion, they would just take this month's payment back and they would put a reduced amount into my account instead.  When I pointed out that I wasn't contractually obligated to work overtime, he (the owner) told me that they don't want to be the kind of company that worries about contracts.  The manager stayed quiet until the part about overtime, when he said "maybe if you worked faster you wouldn't have to do so much overtime".  When I tried to point out the difficulties caused by my AS and unrelated physical problems, he basically said 'so what, I worked 80 hours a week before I took over this place'.  

Through all of this I was experiencing extreme rage to the point that my hands started to shake and I was trying desperately to stay in control because I had only been working there for a year and a half, so I had no legal protection against being fired without cause, I was unprepared for this and didn't know what to say and I couldn't risk adding to the stress my family was under.  I managed it, but I was so angry I couldn't sleep properly for days. When I talked to my parents about what happened, my mum made me promise not to do anything rash, and so far I've kept to that.  A few weeks later, the owner had the nerve to drop by the office and say to me "I trust there won't be any more badness from you".  Even now, the rage is not fully gone;  when I see or hear the owner I try to get as far away as I can and I speak to him as little as possible. 

I tried getting legal advice but was told that the owner's behaviour, while immoral, was not illegal. The thing that really annoys me is that the owner can willingly ignore his side of my employment contract.  Since a contract is pretty much a legally recognised promise / agreement, him saying that contracts didn't matter to him effectively means that his word is worth nothing, yet I have to obey him.  He thinks I have to do whatever they says as long as I get paid on-time and they don't do anything that I could take him to court over, and he doesn't have to bother to change anything to make my job easier.  Perhaps this is all due to cultural differences (both owner and manager are Iranian, and related, while I am neither), but I doubt it.   

Not long ago, some crony was being given a tour by the owner , and along the way, they stopped at the office I worked in 

The tourist said he thought the owner was the best manager he'd ever met and asked if I agreed.  I just looked at both of them, and said nothing;  if I said 'yes' it would be a lie & I didn't feel comfortable lying at that question, but I wasn't sure if saying 'no' would break my promise not to do anything rash.  After a few seconds, the tourist announced they were moving on and they left me alone. 

Now for the pain of truth, or at least a subjective truth.  My dad started the divorce proceedings while my mum was in hospital, having undergone surgery.  To respect their privacy, I won't disclose why.  I don't know if his claims about her behaviour are true or he just thinks that they are, but here is my truth; his actions have hurt his children deeply.  He has destroyed our hopes that there could be a peace between our parents, he has left us all less financially secure than before, and now we will have to worry about the psychological damage done to our mother and our ability to form lasting relationships for the rest of our lives.  His actions to force his truth onto his family have led to unnecessary pain. 

He didn't have to deal with the psychological damage his actions have caused to mum, or with the people who he chose to drag into this.  He doesn't have to ask himself why he is even here at all sometimes, or what he should have said that would have prevented things escalating.  He put his own desire for revenge about a perceived injustice above his duty to protect his children and I have yet to fully forgive that.   

I sometimes think about how my rage at work mirrored his rage at mum, and if I would go as far if given a chance and I don't like the answer.

As much as I hate when people lie to big themselves up or go back on their word, I also accept the need to lie, as long as you aren't doing it for yourself.  I think Sir Terry Pratchett had the right of it in his book Hogfather, in which it states that many of the intangible concepts that we believe in, such as justice and mercy, are technically lies.  We cannot weigh or measure them, yet we choose to believe that these ideas exist, because if they don't then they can never become true.    

As for the truth, when I have to tell an unpleasant truth, I try to put it gently, to avoid violating the other person's subjective truth like my dad did.  When it comes to the truth, I think how it is told is sometimes more important than what is being told, if that makes sense.

I wouldn’t say I have learnt a method yet! So far I’ve found if I’m keeping really busy at work then I tend to not notice as much what others are doing but in terms of actually learning to cope with feeling like I over react to people not doing what they should be I am far from figuring that out!

I only lasted as many years as I did in my last job because I was able to switch over my patterns and I find I manage 6-9 months before I start to crumble and can’t hide how I’m managing much longer than that and then I have had to make a change 

i definitely feel happier with the work environment I’m now in and there’s less scenarios to get wound up over but I now have the panic of trying to not let that lead me in this new role. I’m furloughed at the moment and it’s not likely I’ll be back before early July it’s when I go back to work I’ve got to start worrying about this again and not sure how to help myself on it.

Well done for learning a method of coping! It is something I am trying to do, with varying degrees of success!

I completely relate to this thread and find this is one of my biggest struggles when it comes to work. I seem to be all good all the whilst everyone else is doing what they are supposed to be doing.

I wasn’t coping with other colleagues only doing half the work or making simple mistakes because they either didn’t care or were not paying attention and it would drive me crazy. I couldn’t leave it either I would find myself feeling like I had to do the tasks that weren’t done and correcting the mistakes because no one was and no one seemed to care and that was causing me more stress than a lot of things and I too was obsessing over it to the point where I knew it was ridiculous and I hated that it bothered me as much as it did but I couldn’t stop it bothering me. 

I had a big issue with an injustice, I was a lot younger than the colleague in question and we worked for the same company similar role but different teams and we clashed heads when she refused to action an email I had sent her and I knew she was supposed to but there is some instances where I would have to do it depending on the task itself. She refused to listen to my point and I dealt with her talking to me like crap very well the first time and went to the managers for clarity and they confirmed I had been right (which I knew I was) and had actioned it myself only because It was urgent but it shouldn’t have been my responsible.

It caused major atmosphere and issues after as I wasn’t going to take the way she spoke to me without raising it and she lied! Acted like she had no idea I had an issue ect and that enraged me even more! I was working nights at this point and only one other staff member in the room and I couldn’t cope with the atmosphere so I changed my hours and worked evenings and weekends instead and didn’t make a huge deal out of it just knew I wouldnt have kept my cool staying in them at set up.

I had changed everything else and found a new job in an area I love small team great set up and perfect (pre lockdown) and the week before I left she actually had the cheek to argue with me infront of all of the evening staff too refusing to action the exact same thing we had disputed 6months ago! I still had the emails confirming the process from my manager which got sent to them too! I stormed out (need to learn to not get to that point where my blood is boiling!) and ranted like crazy on the phone to my manager (he knew all that had gone on and that I was going through the process of assessment for ASD too and if anything was pleased that instead of arguing across the room like I would have done before I took myself out albeit stripping like a child) once I had ranted I finished my shift and couldn’t stop stressing over it! 

I ended up giving myself a severe headache for about 2 days and really wasn’t eating well couldn’t switch off on the night, I had to go in for the weekend nights and was with great staff for those two and after they had been great letting me rant and as much as I shouldn’t react like that they shouldn’t put me in that position either. We ordered a takeaway and come the morning before the day staff were coming in I had stressed out that much and destroyed myself I threw up all over the place. I then called my manager and suggested I gave myself more time off before I start the new role (was on a flexi contract with no notice anyway) 

Now I am trying to learn how to manage this expectation and not let myself react the way I do- still currently struggling with that but as it’s still fairly early days in the new job it’s easier to not jump on those impulses as much as when I was too comfortable in the last role to easily highlight what is frustrating me. The role I have now got is one I see doing for a long time (last one was a supposed gap fill that lasted 4years with the help of altering shifts as easily as I did) and I know this is something I really need to work on but don’t know how to stop that inbuilt feeling of knowing your right and not understanding or coping with other people not doing what they should be.

Not sure if I can ever stop that feeling but want to try and not let it get to me as much as it does!

I’m a social disaster - it comes with the ASD territory - you wouldn’t think it’s possible to upset as many people as I have unintentionally. In fact someone should probably put me in touch with the Guiness Book of World Records. My advice is to try and learn from ‘mistakes’ - I use that term loosely because I don’t consider some of the things others would call mistakes as actually being mistakes. 

Me too! I'm constantly in trouble for calling people out for their lies. or questioning people for their lies. I hate injustice too. I cant figure out why people hurt one another it makes my skin crawl, like i want to scratch at my skin.

I certainly get consumed or obsessed by the pursuit of truth and end up in conflict because the pursuit of the truth seems so 'odd' to the neurotypicals around us!

Thanks so much Mark, Plastic, and  Ladybirdfor your replies.  It's the first time I've ever heard that anyone else finds these things difficult too, and I'll admit I had a little cry.

I do seem to join you all in also being honest to the point of upsetting people.  My principle response to the behaviour I described is just to stop talking entirely.  Unfortunately some rather spiteful people have accused me of bullying them, and really it's entirely because a) I've been honest about the quality of their work b) I've been honest about their conduct at work and c) when I can't cope with them anymore I stop talking and looking at them.  

The one thing that wasn't really clear to me - and I don't want to be intrusive, but do any of you find yourself consumed by this stuff? 

When I am faced with this kind of behaviour I get really really upset, it doesn't just annoy me - although it does that.  Also, when I find something that I can't resolve into a 'true' or false category - generally something about the world that isn't clear, if I have conflicting information - especially if that information is from a less than trustworthy source - I am just destroyed by it.  I can't stop thinking about it and trying to resolve what the truth of the situation is, it's horrendous.  It can go on for days and days with me just consumed by trying to resolve the conflict.

I realise it's a reach but does anyone recognise that too?

I can’t stand lying. And when someone promises something and later pretends it never happened.

At work I had people telling me something but later, in someone else’s presence, they were telling completely different story. Sometimes it looked like I was the one who lied because they back off when asked about the situation. Eveyone agreed that something was wrong but when I told management about that, everyone said it wasn’t true and they never talked to me about that, everything is fine, they never had any problem with anything. 

And people lying that they are very busy and then playing on their phones. 

Or not doing something and then telling management that they didn’t know because nobody told them to do this or nobody explained this to them and they weren’t properly trained. Even though they’ve been asked to do it and they were trained and they said “no problem, I’ll do it “ an hour ago!

Hi - it's something I can't cope with as well - the more I detect their lies, the less I can interact with them.      I have measured NTs and they skim through the world in a superficial way so they don't pay attention to details - this allows those around them to make promises they have no intention of keeping or tell them things that aren't true - and they all just accept it from each other.   It's business as usual.   I'd say they operate at a 50% BS level in general.

What's worse is if you're like me and are 100% honest and truthful with them, even if the information is something they don't want to hear, you're treated with suspicion verging on contempt.     You're not playing the same game - so you must have ulterior motives?   

It's really sad.

I had a manager who was totally incompetent and lied all the time to cover it up - I dreaded interacting with him because everything was a lie - and if I pointed it out, I had to forgive and put it behind me - just so he felt he had a clean slate to lie to me some more.   One of the few people in my life who I could have happily punched in the face.

The only advice I could offer is get out while you have your sanity and reputation - I've played the management game and it's not nice.    I preferred the 'boffin' role - let me do my thing, leave me alone and let me get on with it.

I was diagnosed with autism last year and just wanted to say how I feel an obsession with truth is an autistic thing. I have a very strong need to do what is right, which caused me many problems in work when I blew the whistle on unsafe practices in my hospital. The rational me knew it would destroy my career but I had to do it! But at least I gain some peace from having done the right thing.