I was diagnosed with Asperger's around ten years ago, at the age of forty. Up until then I'd only heard occasional references to it, yet they all matched up with me so well that I felt I needed to find out for sure, so got a referral from my G.P.
And it was a revelation to me, discovering that I'm not just a bundle of random weirdness, but actually a very consistent specimen of the Asperger's species.
Partly why I've joined this forum is a phrase that's kept ringing in my head "Normal people scare me". For a long time I didn't know what it referred to, and yet, it really struck a chord. Not that I'm outwardly "scared", but certainly there's an underlying nervousness whenever I have to interact with anyone other than family or very close friends. And looking the phrase up, yes, I discover it's the name of a documentary film all about the Autistic spectrum.
And partly I'm here to confide in you, my fellow freaks. Because, underneath my calm, good-natured exterior I'm really quite angry and about the way I've been treated all my life. Constantly excluded from the normal social world; so often finding myself hated by people despite doing nothing (that I'm aware of) to trigger it; finding it very hard to fit into work environments. About the latter, it's almost comical the way that some companies preach a very accommodating ethic, yet they can be so unyielding when presented with Asperger's type behaviour. I work in IT, and a previous large company I worked for had a procedure where new software requirements were discussed round a table with the in-house clients. I'd just joined this software development team, so I was a newbie to the platform in question. My two fellow developers had years of experience. And yet I found myself being reprimanded for not "saying stuff" in the meetings. Reprimanded!!! How can that happen??? This newbie, trying his best to understand the requirements, which he hasn't seen until sitting there in the meeting, and trying to digest what the experienced developers are saying about how the requirements can be accommodated into the existing system. All this uses every modicum of my conscious focus. And yet I'm expected to say stuff as well??? To make useful remarks??? It even got to the stage where I found myself threatened with disciplinary action over it - which prompted my resignation. (And that really sucks, considering that my computer programming abilities were second to none).
Anyone might say "Why not just tell them you have Asperger's syndrome?" Well it's never been as simple as that. In fact, it's a lose-lose situation. If I tell them I have Asperger's then, yes, they'll be obliged to make special allowances. But the payback is that my personality, as seen by others, is lost. Everything I do will be scrutinised as "is that because he has Asperger's syndrome?" Going from being seen as just a weird person, I'm instead perceived as disabled ...a cripple. Little short of a "retard".
And that's also the strange irony with Asperger's... socially I am a "retard" (although not so much now, as I've learnt to adapt). But other skills I have are significantly superior to the average person's. I.e. my design skills; my spatial awareness; my ability to conceptualise 3-d structures in my mind, my ability to construct algorithms. Sorry, I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet, just to convey the fact that although I have deficiencies in some ways, I also have other abilities that more than compensate.
It angers me that I (we) have been forced to operate in a world that doesn't understand us, doesn't appreciate us, and to have to bend ourselves to fit into it. We shouldn't be seen as misfits. We should be proud members of our own Asperger's species. Because that's really what it amounts to - we are different to them, but very consistent among ourselves.
I certainly wouldn't want to be any other way. To be "normal" would mean being a completely different person, and losing the things about myself which I regards as most precious. What I'd like is to see Asperger's being more widely recognised and appreciated. Not as a disability, but instead as a respectable "differentness".
Hi - welcome aboard.
Your post reflects my experience in the workplace too. I'm a CEng but I've spent my life being used and abused by the NTs because of my Asperger's.
Can you be absolutely sure, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that they used and abused you because you have Asperger or could it maybe have been that in those situations you were unable to stand up for yourself?
If your theory is true, it would mean that they would use and abuse me as well but I can assure you, they wouldn't, so there’s a flaw in your theory.
I don't want to insult you, but you seem live in a tiny bubble and are totally clueless and unable to understand anyone else's lives - especially those with responsibilities.
If you actually understood the weaknesses that Asperger people have with communication when they are being manipulated by narcissists then you wouldn't post such facile statements.
I think you’ve just described autism! And yes, I am autistic, so you’re right!
But I do understand other people’s lives. I learned this skill. I understand them very well. I studied social work and that sort of thing and became a very good, highly sought after and very well paid social worker and mental health nurse practitioner, so I not only understand the lives of others, but I’m also very good at helping them to create better lives for themselves.
I understand the difficulties that autistic people have with communication because I’m autistic and share those difficulties. The difference is, I never blamed my difficulties on anybody else. I owned them.
When I was getting raped, time and time again, because I didn’t understand the signals or what was going on, I didn’t blame the men who were raping me. I decided that I was going to learn to protect myself and look after myself no matter what it took or I would simply end my life. So I probably succeeded because my life, quite literally, depended on it. My first step was to stay away from all men. This was hard for me because I have always hung out with guys more than females. But if I didn’t want to get raped, that’s what I had to do and that’s what I did. I’m still vulnerable, but over the years, I’ve learned enough to be able to keep myself relatively safe while still enjoying the company of males. That’s just one example. It wouldn’t enter my head to blame somebody else for something I couldn’t do, that doesn’t make sense to me and it takes away what power and control I have.
Says it all.
And just for the record, you can’t insult me, you don’t have the power to do that, only I have that power.
Sure does. When we blame other people for our difficulties we give away our power and we become victims and people then treat us as victims. It’s a vicious cycle.
BlueRay said:But I do understand other people’s lives.
No, you really don't. You think you do. There's a big difference.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on that point.
And all I’m effectively saying here, is if I blame somebody else for anything to do with me or my life, I instantly become a victim and other people will then treat me as a victim and it’s a vicious cycle.
If on the other hand, I take responsibility for myself, whether I like what is happening to me or not and whether I can do anything about it or not, that doesn’t come into this. The second I blame somebody else, I give away any power I had and I become a victim and from there on end the story is predictable. Victims don’t achieve anything much in life because they have already given away any power they had and might have built on, because it was less painful to blame somebody else than admitting I’m absolutely hopeless with communication, I have no idea why, I don’t understand what’s going on with me or why people are treating me like this, I don’t know where to get help etc etc and deciding to do something about it rather than blame others, which sets my fate pretty clearly.
I find this constant hair-splitting - such as 'People's lives aren't different. We all have the same life.' - to be really tiresome. Likewise, your amazement that people worry about such trivial things (to you) as paying bills.
I'm not talking about metaphysical or biological lives. I'm talking about real lives - the differences that people have in terms of their experiences, and what those experiences can add up to and do. You may have experienced some horrific traumas in your own life, which is a terrible thing. But we all respond to things very, very differently. Some of us pick ourselves up, find some form of enlightenment, and move on. Others of us don't. Does that mean we're weak? That we're misguided? Or does it mean that we're less resilient?
We've had this discussion before - about how, for instance, you seemed to regard homelessness as some kind of liberating and transcendental experience. Good for you. You've come to the place you are in life, with the understanding you have, as a result of so many factors. But, of course, you're going to take issue with that. True understanding about the lives of others means being able to look beyond your own particular psychological, spiritual, emotional and circumstantial experience and accept that others have not had such experiences. Or, if they have, they still might not be adapted - possibly as a result of individual neurology - to respond to them in the same way. We can't all see being supported by the state as a positive thing. We can't all see not being able to pay essential bills as nothing to worry about. We don't all have places of refuge to go to when things get really bad. I'm sure you do understand this at some level, and I know you mean well. But you come across sometimes as if you are the only person who has all the answers, and that anyone else's perspective is somehow faulty, inconsistent or otherwise questionable. Is it any wonder, then, that people sometimes get tired and irritated by it?
Martian Tom said:You've come to the place you are in life, with the understanding you have, as a result of so many factors. But, of course, you're going to take issue with that.
What makes you think I’d take issue with that? I couldn’t agree more or have said it any better myself.
You don’t have to see being supported by the state as a good thing. You are free to see the fact that somebody is giving you money to live as a bad thing, that’s your choice. I happen to be grateful for it and I don’t see how my gratitude makes other people weak? Other people don’t come into it. I’m grateful, that’s all I’m saying because without that money, my life would be a lot more difficult and it’s difficult as it is, living with autism and ADHD. And if people want to worry about not being able to pay their bills, let them. I learned that whether I worried or not my bills still didn’t get paid so why worry? I’m in a better position to do something about not being able to pay my bills when I’m thinking clear and my mind isn’t full of worry. Worry used to devestate my life in so many ways so I learned how not to do it and now it seems a ridiculous thing to do, to me.
The only places of refuge I ever had or have, are a shop doorway, if I’m lucky, and my mind.
I come across as someone who has all the answers TO YOU ~ other people will all see me in their own way as well. I can’t control how everybody sees me. If people get tired and irritated by me, I do have a good solution for them ~ don’t communicate or have anything to do with me. Some do some don’t. I like to get on with all people and I love talking to people who have different views from me, how else do I learn? But I can’t control other people who have all these judgements etc going on which says people can only speak and be liked if they say what they want to hear.
I’m constantly seeking out people who know more than me, which is everybody, because none of us can know more than we know and if somebody knows something we don’t know then they know more than us and I want to share their knowledge and wisdom etc. Everyone is our teacher, when you know you’re the student. Life to me isn’t a game I win or loose but an experience in which I can learn from everybody, if my mind is open to it and not full of rules and judgements and blaming. I love unconditionally because who am I to not love unconditionally?
Oh, and I don’t even know what you mean by hair splitting? Is that another way of saying we have different views, different ways of experienceing and interpreting the world? If so, how do we stop that? Do we all pretend to be like each other? I don’t understand it? And if we do all pretend to be like each other and experience the world the same way, say the same things etc who’s way do we follow and model ourselves on?
BlueRay said:Victims don’t achieve anything much in life because they have already given away any power they had and might have built on, because it was less painful to blame somebody else
Actually, there can be power in blaming, and indeed at times it is necessary in order to protect others from harm (see for example some of the victim impact statements from the Nassar case). If we never blamed people for their actions then there really would be no point in having laws...
Further, what about when a victim is blameless (e.g. a small child who is abused)? How is it that they need to acknowledge some form of responsibility for their abuse or they won’t ‘achieve anything much in life’.
Sitting and wallowing in sorrow for yourself is not healthy, no, but just because you place some form of blame on someone for something, doesn’t mean you can’t have a completely successful life with a healthy way of thinking afterwards.
Thank you for your conversation.
Can you tell me an actual situation, that you have experienced, where blaming somebody or something for your upset, or suffering, or whatever it is you’re blaming them for, that brings more love, compassion, understanding, giving, peace and forgiveness into the world?
Your discussion about the little baby being abused, wasn’t clear to me at first. But I think you’re saying, that a baby, who doesn’t know what a victim is, who can’t even probably speak the word, is thinking and believing that they’re a victim? Is that what you’re saying?
If so, I would hazzard a guess that the baby is doing whatever it’s doing. That it’s not actually sitting around saying I’m a victim. So therefore it isn’t. It has simply had a dreadful thing happen to it and it needs the people around it to love it and look after it with kindness and compassion. It need never grow up believing it was a victim if nobody tells them that that’s what they were.
A child can NEVER assume responsibility. We do that when we grow up.
How do you feel when you are blaming somebody for something? Do you feel full of compassion and humility, towards the person you’re blaming? Do you feel at peace? With a clear and open and forgiving feeling? Are we treating the person how we ourselves would wish to be treated? Are we bringing more love into the world?
The case I already referred to demonstrates where blaming has brought more love etc. into the World - those involved have pulled together, comforted each other in ways many of them had never experienced before, fought for change for future generations of athletes, assisted others in need etc., all with a positive attitude despite what they suffered. That can’t be seen as a negative.
An abused baby is a victim if they think of themselves as one or not. Victim - ‘a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action’. My point was that you said victims ‘don’t achieve anything much in life’ as they have blamed someone else, and I consider that completely unfair to say about a victim that can’t even blame and had no fault in the event themselves, such as a child being abused.
It appears that we have a different understanding of the word ‘victim’. You can by the definition be a victim without considering yourself one...
When I have personally blamed someone for something then I have treated them politely and indeed how I would wish to be treated. There was no hatred or anger involved and I did forgive them, though I can’t forget what they did. Unfortunately, despite my manners, the same cannot be said for the individuals concerned. They were continually abusive, vindictive, rude and insulting towards me despite it being them not me who had broken the law and them knowing it. Even the Judge remarked on their ‘offensive’ comments...you see, no matter how hard you try to bring peace and love into certain situations, it doesn’t always work out, whether there is blame involved or not!
It’s not clear to me, from your example, how specifically ‘blame’ played a part in that situation.
A person who does not believe themselves to be a victim, is not, in their eyes (the only eyes that actually matter to them) a victim, just because somebody else says they are. Period.
They only become a victim, when they themselves, believe themselves to be a victim, not when somebody else says they are.
So if a little baby or young child, does not believe itself to be a victim, they are not victims, no matter how many people say they are.
Yes, they may have been recipients of atrocities committed against them, but that in itself, doesn’t make them victims. It’s a judgement call and only that person can say whether they see themselves as a victim, or not. No matter how many other people say they are.
Again, a child who has been abused, can be seen as a victim in the eyes of everybody else, but if that child doesn’t believe it’s a victim, then it isn’t. No matter how many people say it is.
A person can feel like a victim, if that’s who they believe they are. If they say, I’m a victim, then yes, they are.
But if they say ‘I’m not a victim. I don’t see things the way you do’. It doesn’t matter what the dictionary says, they’re not a victim. Then how can somebody else say they are?
A person can, as you say, by the definition, be a victim without considering themselves to be one BUT ONLY from the point of view of the person saying they’re a victim. The person themselves, only become a victim, i.e. take on the identity of a victim, once they themselves believe themselves to be a victim, not when somebody else says they are.
You say you blamed somebody and then you forgave them but that you won’t forget what they did.
So in short. You hold that person responsible for how you feel? They made you feel bad and just to prove how bad they made you feel, you will go on feeling bad for the rest of your life, even after the other person has long even forgotten the incident.
And this is not me criticising you, but who exactly gave you licence to judge people, hold them responsible for how you feel, and then forgive them? We don’t give forgiveness to others. That’s not our job. We don’t have that gift.
It sounds like your forgiveness, love, compassion and understanding might not have come from the heart? It sounds as though you may have sort of forgiven them, in the hopes that they won’t repeat the same behaviour again? It doesn’t work like that.
If we are going to forgive somebody, we have to forget. How many times do we want them to pay? Do we want to make them suffer, every time we look at them? Instead of meeting them with love? Regardless of how many times they appear to not be showing love? Do we only give love to those who love us? Do we only give love when somebody shows us love, and not before?
If you live from a place of love, you literally have nothing else to give. So you give love regardless. And sometimes you get it back. And sometimes you don’t. And sometimes you get it back in unexpected ways, and from somebody else. A stranger maybe. Who smiled at you and somehow, made you forget about killing yourself.
Anyway, I’m not one to usually bail out of a conversation. But I have no wish, to ‘prove’ my point. Because I haven’t got one. I thought we were talking but I feel like I’m almost at the point of defending what I’ve said, rather than just having a friendly conversation. And I have no wish to do that. I would rather have just a friendly conversation,
And I’m coming off here for a while now because I can see that my world view, provokes something, in some people, that doesn’t feel like love, to me. So I bow out gracefully. And thank you for your conversation this evening. I found it stimulating and exciting and I hope you got something out of it as well.
I understand what you are saying about personally choosing to see yourself as a victim or not, but that’s not the only way you can be a victim by definition, and therefore what you have said about victims could be quite hurtful to some people. Can you not see that.
’You say you blamed somebody and then you forgave them but that you won’t forget what they did.
So in short. You hold that person responsible for how you feel? They made you feel bad and just to prove how bad they made you feel, you will go on feeling bad for the rest of your life, even after the other person has long even forgotten the incident.’
That is offensive and unnecessarily judgmental BlueRay I said that I couldn’t forget i.e. I can’t make the memories that I have disappear at my whim. If I could then I would, but I’ve not yet found a way to produce that amnesia. Do you not remember bad things in your life?!
I’m not out to ‘prove’ anything with my feelings. I’m mentally ill and trying my best to work through that to recover, all utterly unbeknownst to the individuals I am still in legal proceedings against. It is not their business after all. But thanks for dictating to me, a suicidal person, that ‘you will go on feeling bad for the rest of your life’. It appears that despite my efforts, I’m such a terrible person in my and your eyes, so I may as well end it now! And my forgiveness did come from my heart actually - I’m not a disingenuous person and I don’t appreciate it being implied that I am for no reason whatsoever.
It’s a shame you felt you were defending yourself, when in reality I was attempting to have a polite conversation with you about a particular point you made. You appear unwilling to accept that we clearly just have different understandings of the meaning of the word victim and now you have taken offence from my attempt to explain this and insulted me about things in my life, that you know extremely little about. We’ve had conversations before and agreed to disagree, so I don’t know what’s different here - perhaps the messages from others who went before?
FYI, I don’t consider myself a victim personally, but legally I am.
What I said is NOT offensive. Just because you took offence does not make it offensive. I could say the very same thing to somebody else, which I have, of course, many times, and they did not take offence, so therefore what I said is not offensive. Although of course I know that people can take offence, but that's a different thing altogether.
So what I said wasn't offensive, or judgemental, that is simply how you understood it to be. And instead of telling me I'm being offensive and judgemental, why not take a look at you and ask, why, are you offended? That will give you some clues, if you look deep and hard enough and long enough, as to the cause of your suffering. Of course, you don't have to do that. I'm not telling you to do that. It's just one of the techniques that I used to get myself out of suffering and into happiness.
There is no such thing as a terrible person, in my eyes, there are just people, and from the way that I see the world, we are all exactly the same. There are no good, bad or ugly. We are all the same, 100%.
I didn't imply anything about you and I put question marks behind all my guessing, as I was trying to help you figure out where the cause of your suffering is coming from, so you can put an end to it.
I haven't taken any offence at all to anything you have said but I would have to be completely brain dead to not understand we had different ways of understanding the word victim and as far as I was concerned, we were simply discussing that. I can easily see your view of the word, I was simply trying to show you how I see the word, which is not an easy task when the person explaining lives in the fourth and other dimensions and the person trying to understand it, lives in the third.
I'm not leaving this site because of you. I've enjoyed our conversation, thoroughly. I don't think we have to agree to disagree on anything because why do we've have to agree anything? I wasn't trying to explain my meaning to you so you'd agree with me, but to simply help you to understand my view. If it is helpful to you to see a different perspective, good, but if it isn't, that is equally as good. I don't want people to agree with me, what would be the point in that? I had no idea you thought I was maybe trying to get you to agree with me!
Amyway, like I said, my leaving the site has definitely not got anything to do with you. I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation and, as always, I've learned a lot. You haven't done anything to upset me or make me feel like I want to leave the site. I think we were simply engaged in an enjoyable conversation ~ not many people go the distance with me in a conversation as their minds tend to shut off at a certain point so the fact you continued, shows me you have an open mind because I am not an easy person to be understood. I understand people who live in the third dimension, which is where most people live, but they will struggle to understand me, it takes patience and perseverance to understand me when you're coming from the third dimension but it's not impossible.
Anyway, all the best with whatever you've got going on. I suspect that if we were to sit down and chat, face to face, we'd have some great conversations because you clearly do have an open mind. If anything I have said has offended you or that you felt was judgemental, please know, that was never my intention. Like you, I just saw it as two friends chatting.
Take care and you know, bad times do pass. I sincerely hope yours pass sooner rather than later and that the future is much brighter. Much love and again, thank you for such an enjoyable and stimulating conversation.
In terms of coming to an understanding and a comprehension of the autistic communication glitches here occurring, consider perhaps:
BlueRay said:And all I’m effectively saying here, is if I blame somebody else for anything to do with me or my life, I instantly become a victim and other people will then treat me as a victim and it’s a vicious cycle.
Is sound reasoning.
BlueRay said:If on the other hand, I take responsibility for myself, whether I like what is happening to me or not and whether I can do anything about it or not, that doesn’t come into this.
Is sound reasoning again.
BlueRay said:The second I blame somebody else, I give away any power I had and I become a victim and from there on end the story is predictable. Victims don’t achieve anything much in life because they have already given away any power they had and might have built on, because it was less painful to blame somebody else than admitting I’m absolutely hopeless with communication, I have no idea why, I don’t understand what’s going on with me or why people are treating me like this, I don’t know where to get help etc etc and deciding to do something about it rather than blame others, which sets my fate pretty clearly.
Is in part unsound reasoning regarding how much 'Victims' achieve, as no one ever gives their power away.
Life is all about discovering and learning what 'is' to be done, and what is 'not' to be done ~ involving the power that is embodied life-long in and on through the mind-body relationship.
In though that 'Victims' are forced as such to be by 'Persecutors', involving the trinity of Elitism as being sexism, ageism and tribalism, it is not unusual that by example some 'Victims' learn the ways of and become 'Persecutors' and 'Rescuers' in order to feel superior (or least mediocre) rather than inferior ~ in terms of having been by others and themselves invested in these socially shared and habitually enforced transactional roles.
Each societal role as such depends or relies upon the other as involving not unusually quite substantial amounts of pain and suffering, and stating / inferring (as seemed to to others) that this is unproductive or unnecessary devalues it ~ as thereby devalues the life experience of those habitually traumatised and invested since childhood into performing the roles of 'Victim', 'Persecutor' and 'Saviour'.
Consider for instance:
The stance of the victim is “poor me!” Victims see themselves as victimized, oppressed, powerless, helpless, hopeless, dejected, and ashamed, and come across as “super-sensitive,” wanting kid glove treatment from others. They can deny any responsibility for their negative circumstances and deny possession of the power to change those circumstances.
A person in the victim role will look for a rescuer, a saviour, to save them (and if someone refuses or fails to do that, can quickly perceive them now as a persecutor.)
In terms of derailing resilience, victims have real difficulties making decisions, solving problems, finding much pleasure in life, or understanding their self-perpetuating behaviours.
The stance of the rescuer is “Let me help you!” Rescuers work hard to help and caretake other people, and even need to help other people to feel good about themselves, while neglecting their own needs or not taking responsibility for meeting their own needs.
Rescuers are classically co-dependent and enablers. They need victims to help and often can’t allow the victim to succeed or get better. They can use guilt o keep their victims dependent and feel guilty themselves if they are not rescuing somebody.
In terms of derailing resilience, rescuers are frequently harried, overworked, tired, caught in a martyr style while resentment festers underneath.
The stance of the persecutor is “It’s all your fault!” Persecutors criticize and blame the victim, set strict limits, can be controlling, rigid, authoritative, angry and unpleasant. They keep the victim feeling oppressed through threats and bullying.
In terms of resilience, persecutors can’t bend, can’t be flexible, can’t be vulnerable, can’t be human; they fear the risk of being a victim themselves. Persecutors yell and criticize but they don’t actually solve any problems or help anyone else solve the problem.
These are the most extreme versions of these three roles, but we can encounter people playing milder versions of these roles on a pretty regular basis.
The three roles on the victim triangle are Persecutor, Rescuer and Victim. Karpman placed these three roles on an inverted triangle and described them as being the three aspects, or faces of victim. No matter where we may start out on the triangle, victim is where we end up, therefore no matter what role we’re in on the triangle, we’re in victimhood. If we’re on the triangle we’re living as victims, plain and simple!
The basic glitch in society is the delusion that "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" means accepting that one abuse permits another abuse, all big and repetitive Stockholm Syndrome session.
Only it is known that putting the enlightening I in place of the benighting I; reveals the difference between healthy and diseased wisdom, so that less compassionate blindness and less intimate hunger is recognised as a realistic choice.
Drawing attention to the prevalence of abusive conformity in order to instead appreciate and celebrate individuality as being sacred, is by no means an easy task, and you chose to do so.
Yay BlueRay as an individual, and as community member please stay as that would be another yay! Okay?